The road to hell is paved with in-network reimbursements, with Jim Zenk

[music] Welcome to the Navigating Dental Insurance Podcast where we don't take from insurance [music] companies. Here are your hosts, Mr. Jordan Comtock and Mr. Ben Dwey. Welcome to another exciting episode of the insurance entangled podcast, which will also be featured on the Navigating Insurance Podcast and the insurance entangled podcast simultaneously. [music] My name is Ben Tuina and of course uh I'm one of the co-hosts Jordan Comtock who helps me with the navigating dental insurance is tied up today and then my good friend Naron is also

tied up as well unavailable to to be with us at this moment but that's okay because uh what makes up for the difference is our guest uh Jim Zanks. He's uh he he he is uh well I don't know if you're a trained attorney but I you know I know that you you went to law school but what you do professionally as a CPA but specific to that of dental and I invited Jim to be on our podcast today because over the years we've sort of

shared clients here and there. Um, but I've always been impressed with the feedback from clients as it pertains to that of numbers and the fact that Jim and his team, you know, sort of wear this hat of uh counselors and coaches to these doctors as it pertains to things like key performance indicators, uh, strategies on taxes, finances, and things, you know, all the things that you would want to know as a a dental practice owner. And I just love the fact that that Jim specializes in

the space of dentistry in terms of um his uh his professional career. Jim, welcome to the program. Thanks for taking time to chat with us today. >> Oh, thanks, Ben. I really appreciate it. I um thanks for the kind words as well. I've I've always really enjoyed um working with you in the past and um I've had great feedback from clients that have worked with you, so kudos to you. Um, so I and I always enjoy listening to your podcast and um I'm really excited and

honored to that you would extend the invite to me to to loop me in. Um, so a little bit about me. I my name is Jim Zank. Um, I'm the founder of Trident CPA Services. Um, I have a degree in accounting from Iowa State University and I went to law school at the University of Kansas. Um, so I am a CPA and attorney. I'm not a practicing attorney. I focus exclusively on the CPA firm side of things. Um, recently I did become a certified financial planner.

So, we will be building out financial planning in 2025 and beyond. Um, in my journey following college, I uh I did what a lot of accountants do. I went to work for a couple different big four accounting firms. Um, I left those large firms though and started working with dentists a little over 13 years ago. Um, I worked uh I worked my way up, became a partner in a um it was a large CPA firm that had we had hundreds of dentists that we worked with.

It was a really good experience, but over time I started to get some feedback from clients that they were starting to feel a bit more like a a number than a name. And I thought to myself like this is not at all what I want. And so I had a chance to jump and I that's when I founded Trident CPA Services back in 8 years ago, 2017. Um the vision has always been to have a great place for CPAs to work solely with business owner dentists.

Um and so when you treat all your people as people as your clients as well, then everybody begins to feel more like a name than a number. Um, and so just we've had very good success attracting great people to work with. I've got other CPAs from big four backgrounds. I've got MBAs that used to work as CFOs in familyowned companies where they had to come up with KPIs in their industries. And so all of that stuff lends itself really well to working with business owner dentists.

Um, and so, um, yeah, that's kind of a little bit about me and and my firm. >> That's awesome. Have you read that book, uh, Networking with Millionaires and Their Friends? >> No, I have not. >> It was one of the books that I read while I was in college. And um I love that book because um it talks a lot about CPAs and it talks a lot about how the fact that you know CPAs um especially ones that specialize in a specific industry, they sort

of become your best friends in terms of business advice because they're dealing with other clients that experience a lot of well similar things but you're all dealing in the world of very similar KPIs, right? where you know um you can measure statistics and numbers from clients to clients to clients established patterns uh and then naturally over the years you hear what the doctor the the most the highest producing doctors what they're being counseledled to do by their coaches and actually pick up all kinds of great

education as it pertains to how how the numbers tie into the practice and why numbers need to look the way they are supposed to. [laughter] So check out that book if you can. It's a great book for dental. I've been referring that to dental clients saying, "Hey, you you need to find a dental specific CPA, you know, after hearing all [laughter] >> networking with millionaires and their friends." I'll have to check that out. [clears throat] Yeah. >> Yes. Yeah. It's a it's a really great book

about networking in general, but I love the tiein on how it explains the value of a specialized CPA in their in their industry. which is sort of the question that I have for you is uh you know um I know that you work with a lot of dental clients. So you know on that part there Jim why should dentists use a dental CPA? You know what are the benefits or reasons as to why a specific type of CPA in this case a dental CPA would be

better or more beneficial than sort of a general CPA firm that handles multiple industries. >> Sure. Um, so for all your listeners out there that are business owner dentists, um, you know, once you make the decision to, you know, jump into business ownership, it life becomes a lot more complex, right? It's you're going [clears throat] to need some help with an accountant getting taxes done. You have to maintain books. Um, you you kind of have two choices, right? You can either um you can work with

what what I would call a generalist CPA or you could work with a CPA firm that has um some kind of a dental niche or maybe they exclusively work with dentists. Um [snorts] I've worked in both. Years ago I worked in a generalist CPA firm and um we worked with pretty much just about anything that came through the door. Um it was interesting. I learned a lot. Um, I worked with a lot of different industries. Um, at the same time though, it kind of felt like

I was becoming a jack of all trades, master of none. >> Mhm. >> And um, but uh, so that that those firms tend to be um, very tax return or tax compliance driven. They do lots of tax returns. Um, they they typically charge on an hourly basis. Um, and that's kind of how they roll, so to speak. Now, a dental specific or um some of the bigger firms that might have a a group within the firm that they just work with like dental medical or dental

um those firms um you know there's there's uh well, think of it this way is it's a 40hour work week typically, right? And there's about 50 weeks a year. So, there's about 2,000 hours a year, working hours a year. And when everything you do is working on issues, tax and business issues related to business owner dentistry, um that's a lot of on the job training that is just focused exclusively on the issues for business [clears throat] owner dentists. So >> that's that's one component. Um, another

thing that I would mention is it's just when you're when you're at or when you work with a a a dental specific CPA firm, now all of a sudden you got a some economies of scale in that the firm can make some serious investments in the dental industry. So, I give you a couple of examples. Um, so for example, dental specific education is what what um [clears throat] is common here at at Trident. Like for example, last fall I took my entire team, like seven seven

of us went out to Newberg, Oregon to tour the ADC um facility. All the the cons the manufacturer of the chairs and all the equipment and everything out there in Newberg, Oregon. spent a few days out there and um taken my team to smile con and the greater New York um dental society meetings and um we've been to the DS world, densely ser um so that I think that helps us understand better um some of the issues business issues that or just the the industry lingo

the the terminology and it helps us relate better to the issues that business owner dentists so I think that's a distinguishing feature that they might find your listeners might find working with a dental specific firm. Um, one other quick thing is it has to do with some of the tax savings. You know, like a real common thing for dentists who are reaching out to a dental specific CPA. The things I hear a lot is wanting to capture more tax deductions. And let me explain real quickly

that why why it it can happen tend to happen more often at a dental specific CPA firm. If you work in a generalist firm, you know, you might have a one or two or a handful of dentists that you work with. Um, in Trident, for example, we have about 120 practices. So there might be a tax savings idea that could save a dentist could get a dentist like maybe another $2,500 a year deduction. Save him maybe a,000 bucks a year. But it's going to require some

research. It's going to require some memos. It's going to require coaching and educating the client on the deduction and what they have to do to get the tax deduction. So um you know if you have only a couple of dentists you can't afford to invest 20 25 hours of your professional time trying to do it but if you've got 100 plus clients you can advertise that cost over all of those clients and now you can bring that tax savings idea to them. So anyway, those are

some of the I think some of the distinguishing features between a so that that way your listeners understand the differences or what they could expect between a generalist CPA firm and a dental specific >> right. Yeah. No, I can relate to that Jim because you know as a for me my profession well my my first profession was uh negotiating and sort of getting into that world of negotiating in a professional setting. Um so most professional negotiators um they don't do general negotiations. It's very specific to

uh a a product or an industry. Right. So as an example, I get asked to negotiate for chiropractors, optometrists, and medical doctors all the time. I know how to do it, but with what you mentioned about just the general understanding on how the industry operates, right? How the doctors operate, what does their day-to-day look like, right? Um how how how does my services impact the practice as a whole, you know, and when I decided to specialize in dentistry? Um, what I noticed is that my skill

set increased because I was doing what you were doing. I was going to the conferences. I was learning. I was trying to learn about my clientele, you know, and um I never was a big believer of going to conferences to increase my negotiating skills because I don't want to be in a conference room full of people just like me. I want to be in a conference room with people that I'm trying to serve, you know, trying to learn, right, >> of what makes them tick, you

know, h how to help them. >> So, I appreciate you going through that and I believe I agree. Uh we do see big differences on tax mitigation strategies with clients that work with specific CPAs that are that are exclusive to dental or work mostly in dental. You just see a lot more, right? you see or at least you you have a a much better understanding of that specific one industry compared to a generalist where you're trying to understand tax mitigation strategies for different types of industries

that might have different tax laws or different things you know that they may or may not have advantage to you know >> manufacturing or yeah >> yeah let me ask you a quick question then >> sure >> question when you decided to focus just on dentistry did you notice or did you observe curve that your business began to pick up even more like once you made the decision like in other words before you might have been I'll work with these guys and these guys and these

people and those but the minute that you made the decision like no no no no only dental did you find that all of a sudden like the work just came really came in >> yes um for a couple of reasons I think the number one reason Jim as to the sudden growth is because you had clients that were raving about you. They were they were so happy at the fact that you were doing things that they had no idea that you could do or they could

do or have access to. >> But that's a function of really being immersed in the industry and understanding all the ins and outs, right? Under looking under every stone, you know, just to see where are the opportunities, right? What we could what could you create in terms of opportunities and then how can you duplicate that for others in the industry, the doctors that are going to need it. So to answer your [clears throat] question, yeah, when at least for me, when when when you narrow down

that that specialized focus and it's not just being in dentistry, it it's like, you know, you have solo practitioners and you have DSOs, >> those are two different animals as it pertains what I do, you know, it's like it's it's two it's almost two separate industries as it pertains to dealing with insurance, you know. >> Yeah. [clears throat] And I've noticed that even when we started to narrow down to work with uh practices that were three locations or under um and then referring out to our

other competitors on the other things that we don't specialize in. The referrals go back and forth, you know. So yeah, naturally you would grow the business when you're specializing and >> and uh so so yeah. Yeah, we did see growth. >> Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah. It's like a It's like that it it's just that like it increases the the speed at which the stuff comes flying through, you know, that it's counterintuitive, but it's also ironic, too, isn't it? That um you'd think like if you put

the scope wide to taking on lots of different industries that you'd get more clients, but no, it's it works exactly in the reverse, it seems. and your expertise. I'm sure you found that your expertise skyrocketed as you had so many more at bats, so to speak, and experiences that >> Yeah, I think it's a function of um you know, being uh like really funneling in on what you do well and then doing it 10,000 times and 10,000 times over because as you do that 10,000 times,

>> you as the the person giving the service get better and better and better and better. That's why more experienced professionals get paid more is because they it it's the experience, right? [laughter] >> I apprec I appreciate you asking me that question, Jim. I do have a question for you, though, as we're kind of talking about, >> you know, we're talking about uh picking a dental related CPA for the reasons that we've discussed, but what are doctors missing out on in terms of benefits that they're

not taking advantage of? Maybe we can focus on two areas, tax mitigation strategies or, you know, tax bracket planning and then fees. you know, can you can you address that in terms of what are doctors missing out on from a professional CPA standpoint? What are what are doctors losing out on in those two areas? >> So, let me uh you said tax tax mitigate or tax bracket planning and fees. Let me let me start with the tax side real quick. >> Um so, I'll give you

an example. Um I'll speak in terms of an example. Um something I think a lot of your listeners can relate to. um real common issue amongst um business owner dentists is they decide that it's time to to level up in their practice. Maybe they're going to make a a considerable investment in you know outfitting ops five and six or even if it's just like now I'm going to start using interoral scanners instead of impression material or so they make anywhere from a $25,000 to a $250,000

investment in their practice. Um, what I what I see a lot is they they expend all this money and then the equipment sales reps are they'll they're beaten a path to the door to the dentist to tell them and to extol all the virtues of section 179 and bonus depreciation and how they can write it all off and it's just enormous tax savings and they're right. They're correct that that you know. However, the one thing that I see is there's a lot of tax preparers out

there that, you know, you're a dentist. Let's say you typically make, you know, somewhere 400, $450, $500,000. You got a robust practice. Maybe you got a 1.2 million collections practice, million to million two, and you've got like a 35% profit margin. So, yeah, you make anywhere from 400 to 500,000 a year, year after year. That's the thing about dentistry is dentists have the ability to make money year after year, right? As as compared to dentists are not designing the next killer app that they're going to

sell for $100 million and then spend the rest of their life on the beach. No, no, no. It's a year in year out thing. But as a result, every year dentists find themselves right back up in the 32 or 35 or even 37% tax bracket. So, here's where the opportunity is. Is you go out and spend, you know, $60,000 on a on a piece of dental equipment, you don't have to write that all off in the first year. And if it if it just so happens

that your taxable income is just say $30,000 into the 32% bracket. Well, if you write the whole $60,000 piece of equipment off, you're going to get $30,000 of benefit at a 32% bracket, but 30,000 at only a 24% federal tax savings. So, one thing they can do is what we do is we look and say, "Okay, no, no, no, no. We're going to write off that $60,000. We're going to use section 179 to write it off just to get you out of the 32% bracket and

then we're going to take the remaining 30 and we're going to depreciate that over the next 5 years because you're going to be right back up in the 32 or even 35% bracket next year. So, now you've got $30,000 depreciating over the next 5 years. you got deductions waiting for you when you're back up in the higher brackets next year and you've got you're going to get the entire say $60,000 written off at the highest possible tax rate for you. So that's that's a you know

instead of just writing it all off in one year the name of the game is not to pay zero taxes as a dentist. the name of the game is to stay out of the highest tax brackets year after year. And so that's the tax savings opportunity. Um the other thing is is uh it's a big opportunity and it's something that's right in your right up your alley and that is fees. Um what we started doing at Trident is um you know we subscribed to the NDAS

>> [clears throat] >> uh uh you know computer model or computer software and then started sharing that with clients with our advisory clients and uh surprisingly it's just surprising to me I didn't realize this the number of clients whose fees are not um competitively priced in the marketplace and they could be either fee for service or out of network or they could be in network. Um either way, they need to do something about it. Um and because here's the thing, as I explain to clients is

for every dollar that you can legitimately increase your collections, that's a dollar that drops from collections right down to the bottom line. That's money for you to take home. And so that's a, you know, same amount of work, more pay. You know, that's let's work smarter not harder is the whole theme of that. And so that's where um that's where you come in. You know what I mean? I can't do any fee negotiation. That's for sure. I'm not doing that. So um anyway, that's a huge

opportunity. Um everybody should at least be looking at that once a year just to see like where am I at? Am I competitive? Am I staying in? And this is especially since co um ever since co labor has gone way up. Everybody's getting, you know, hygienists, everybody's getting paid more. um labs and supplies have all gone up and yet insurance reimbursements have not kept pace, right? So the the road to hell is paved with in network bread and butter dentistry. >> I love it. >> No,

it really is because you're get they're they're getting squeezed. We see it all the time. They're getting squeezed. They're they're working every bit as hard if not harder than they ever have. >> Yes. >> And yet all their costs are climbing up and yet insurance is not paying it. and they're not the insurance isn't helping them out. So if if something has to happen, you know, they're they're getting squeezed. And so anyway, that's why I tell my clients, you got to you got to do something.

You got to be proactive about your your topline fees. So anyway, so >> well, you made my day with that quote. The road to hell is paid within [laughter] reimbursements. I'm gonna I'm gonna shout that from the rooftops that Jim Jim Zank's name I got from Jim on the podcast. >> It's it's in network and it's it's breadandbut dentistry especially and there's so many dentists that they that's they do breadandbut dentistry. It's in network breadandbut. It's the ones that can do implants or do some cosmetic

stuff. um they can escape or all on X, you know, they can escape some of the issues by doing one big case a month kind of a thing, but man, it's the breadand butter folks that are really getting squeezed. So, so that is actually a really great perspective, Jim. I actually never heard that that angle before from a professional CPA in terms of dentistry and fees, but I I know exactly what you mean because I mean, you take the hygiene example, you know, in our where

we live, hygienists wages are $60 to $65 an hour. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And we live in a community where a proy reimbursement is barely 50. You'd be lucky if you get $60. >> And Yeah. And so you're coming out of pocket to do treatment because it's not just your hygienist that you're paying, you know, it's it's the team members, the ster whoever's sterilizing the room preparing it, you know, the doctor doing the exam. [snorts] Um, so that that quote, the road to hell is paved

with in network dentistry. in network breadandbut dentistry. Um that that is the truth, you know, because you're you're you're you're operating in an environment where you have procedure codes that number one are squeezed with profitability >> bec uh excuse me because the fees are just low to begin with on the in network side of things. >> So thank you for that. >> I'm [clears throat] curious, Jim, you know, you mentioned the number of clients that you're working with and you know, I'm sure you consult with

doctors across the country that are not clients. Um, what are some of the best characteristics of your most successful dental clients? >> Oh. Um, so, so success, uh, what makes successful? Well, success is kind of a watch out. That's a loaded term. Me as an accountant, I want to think success means money, right? Like making more money. But, um, but that's not always it. Like sometimes success, like we got a we got a bunch of clients that for su success for them means to be able

to go from 4 days a week to three days a week. you know, um to be able to hire an associate, have the associate work, and for them to make the same amount of money, but reduce the hours or reduce the workload. Um so, but I would say like there there are some common threads. Um the one thing I would say is that most successful dentists is they they they have they focus on the dentistry, the technical they focus on the technical dentistry. And here's why.

Um, if you are, say you're say you're a dentist, you got one or two couple hygienists, you got four ops, you run two columns, your hygienist got two columns of hygiene. Real common demographic right there. you, the owner. Um, think about once you've reached the point where you've paid for all the supplies and labs and labor for the month and you, you know, the rent, you're only, you know, the rent doesn't go up just because you do more dentistry. But think about it. The next $1,000

of dentistry that you do, in order to do $1,000 more dentistry, you really only have to pay for labs and supplies, right? So about 15 maybe 15% cost. So [snorts] 85 cents on the dollar is profit for you, the owner. So the most successful dentists get that and they realize that their incremental income increases that all the profit comes in the last 5 to$10,000 of collections per month. You see what I mean? That's where so focusing on your schedule and you know like what I tell

my clients is look you the dentist you know if you get if you get a cold the rest of the practice gets the flu like it it is so critically important that you and and you have to be the focus your office manager your team has to be there to support you and your schedule so that you are always productive each day and not busy but productive like I don't want four crown seats in one day. I want, you know, smooth out my workload so that

I've got only x amount of energy every day. I want to be productive every day. Um, that helps on cash flow, too. If you're always doing something productive, you're always got something for for cash flow coming in. Um, the other thing another thing they do is um they buy back their time. You know, like dentists have the ability here's the thing is we all should have gone to dental school. Dentists have the ability to produce or and collect five, six, sometimes over $1,000 an hour. So

you can pay for a lot of other people to help you if you can put those kind of numbers, right? So some of the more successful ones under understand that and so they, you know, they pay for professionals to help them and support them and make them better and um so and then finally um they invest in themselves. uh continuing education, challenging themselves to be better. Here's why. I mentioned it a minute ago um with breadandbut dentistry. It's amazing. If you can do like what I

call a big case, like I'm talking like a 20 25,000, like an all-on x 30,000. If you can do one of those per month, that makes your month. Now, it's hard. It's not easy. I mean, you've got to invest in yourself and train and educate and have the the mental, you know, the intestinal fortitude to venture into that. However, the mo more successful ones, they overall they can have a more balanced life because they can create enormous value in a shorter period of time. So, yeah.

So, anyway, I'm kind of prattling on now, but that that's what I would hear. >> Oh, that's awesome. It's always fun to hear feedback from from professionals that work with a lot of dentists. [snorts] And so what you mentioned there, I'm very certain that listeners would resonate with a few of those things. >> You know, in the interest of time, I know that we're kind of wrapping up here, Jim, and appreciate you being with us today. I just have one more question. Now, it's January 2025.

>> Uh tax season is creeping up on us. You know, that whole April 15th is just a couple months down the road, >> right? >> Uh so I want to just pick your brain real quick about tax planning. You know, the importance of tax planning. So the question is is what kinds of things should should I be discussing or you know if I'm a dentist what what should I be discussing during uh at least with my CPA at this stage of the tax preparation you know

getting ready for the taxes this year and even planning for taxes for future years. What uh what are things that I should be discussing with my CPA? >> Um well I I always like this time of year is frustrating to me because of the commercials on TV. Like there's going to be the H&R Block and the Turboax commercials. Now, all those commercials g give people the impression that to save on taxes, you just got to find the right guy who knows all the tricks. You know,

they know all the the gimmicks. And >> here's and maybe that's the case for wage earners and that kind, but for business owner dentists, we're talking we're talking opportunities with a lot more zeros behind it. And so sometimes tax savings things, they take time to implement and it's too late right now to change what happened back in 2024. You can't unring the bell, right? So right now we as tax preparers are kind of just reduced to being historians right now. We're just recording what happened last

year. But here's the key. As soon as April 15th comes past, we should be focused on this year 2025. What can we be doing? And the reason is this, like some of your listeners might be thinking, you know, I've got a simple IRA. Maybe I want to do a 401k. I could save, you know, up to 60ome,000 in a in a in a 401k each year. That's a lot more than a simple IRA. Do I want to should I make that change? Now, an IR or

excuse me, a 401k can take 90 days or more to get start to stand up. So, you can't do that like in the last month of the year. You need to be planning ahead. So that's why planning becomes really important is uh and I I would recommend meeting with your tax advisor around May or June before you get crazy busy with all the kids and everything coming in the summer months. Um meet with your meet with your CPA if you can in the May or June

time frame to do that kind of midyear planning for any potential big ideas. So >> yeah. Yeah. I learned the hard way that that's important. >> Oh no. Did you >> like you know January he's like okay let's start working on tax you know the taxes and all that and then CPA calls like and asks me all these questions and it's like oh yeah oh yeah we bought a car last year for the company why didn't you tell me [laughter] >> oh >> that's the thing

is don't don't to the listeners please don't beat up the CPAs at this point I mean the tax code's very explicit you got to do A B C and D >> to get the deduction [clears throat] you got to do it in the year that you want the deduction Right. So, they're not they're not being sticks in the mud or being like too bad. They're just they're trying to be ethical and do their job. And so, anyway, but but be proactive with your with your preparer

in the future is what what I would encourage. You know, there's a lot more money to be saved >> 100%. We we meet with our uh well I meet with my CPA at least two three times a year especially when I'm planning on making a big expense and investment into something. >> Oh, good. >> Um I learned that talking to them will help you understand or at least giving them an opportunity to do their job efficiently for you for me as a client. Right. >> Yes.

>> And so it goes both ways. our our CPAs are less stressed when they when they know what we're planning, when we plan with them, right? And at the end of the day, what when I learned this, Jim, I learned the hard way. But what I learned is that when I communicate with my CPA regularly, and they're a part of my business or part of our our our planning, right? Um our tax mitigation strategies are significantly more effective or at least we have one, right? >>

Yeah, [laughter] that's true. That's true. >> Yeah. And if it's the tax mitigation strategy for this year, it's ongoing. So, you have to sort of always be in touch with your CPA just to make sure that you're not missing out on, you know, writing a check to Uncle Sam for money that you could probably have saved, you know. Well, the other thing, Ben, I would point out, I I bet your CPA I I would be willing to bet that your CPA enjoys working with you more

than, for example, the clients that bring in the the proverbial shoe box full of receipts and stuff because they can actually impact your world, you know what I mean? And it's a lot more fulfilling. I mean, we're humans, too, believe it or not. I mean, we like to see that we can make a difference in our clients. And the other thing too is if we're doing planning, yeah, we we invest some time and we may bill for some time during the year, but when we know

what's going on, it actually reduces the amount of time and effort that we have to do next spring. So, it does allow a lot of it does. >> Yeah. We pay I noticed that when we're doing catchup work, we pay more. >> Oh, yeah. >> When we're being proactive, we pay less in in billable hours, you know. Exactly. >> Plus, our CPAs love us, too. It's like, I wish all the clients were like you because you're you're setting us up to be successful. So, now we

can go we could we could capture this, this, this, this, and this for you because we understand what you're trying to do with your business, you know. >> Yeah. >> So, no, that's awesome, Jim. I I mean, I love I always love talking to CPAs because I I I think CPAs just have some of the best well-rounded minds. You're great negotiators. You're just great everything all, you know, business all around. CPAs are, in my opinion, are sort of a go-to profession uh just to just to

shoot the breeze or or at least brainstorm on business ideas at the very least because CPAs tend to understand, at least from my experience, a lot more about any given business than most business owners know about their own businesses, you know. [laughter] So, so if listeners have questions, Jim, how do they get a hold of you? >> Um, number one, my website, Trident, like the gum. tridentcpa.com. Um, you can also email me at jimtridentpa.com. That'd be the probably the best way to to get a hold

of me. And real easy. >> Awesome. For our listeners, I'll make sure to post that in our show notes so that you could click on that, especially if you're driving. Please don't try to write down anything at this moment. Just check out those show notes. Jim, this has been an honor. I I want to give you the last word to sort of share any final thoughts that you have with our listeners pertaining to today's to today's topic. Sorry, tongue twister there. >> Well, I just want

to say thank you for it's real honor. Um and then here's just a like here's a pro tip for all of your listeners that are working with any kind of CPA. Um, what I suggest is sometime in March or April, like if you go pick up your taxes or you have some reason to stop by the office, I I I would recommend either bring bring them by like a bottle of wine or some kind of treats. I'm serious. I I'm not kidding. Um, that 20 bucks

you spend on treats or something for the for the accountant or for the office, it's very special. It's very touching. And by that point in the game, everybody is just burned out and tired. And so, man, it's a really low bar. And it you put yourself [snorts] can put yourself way above the bar. If you just bring by some kind of some kind of treats for the office, they will definitely appreciate it. And it's all intangibles, right? It's all in it's [music] it's intellectual property that

you're trying to get from your CPA and it goes a long way when they like you. So >> that is a that that is a that's also a negotiating tactic as well is to uh to get the people that you're [music] working with to to like you. They don't have to disagree with you, but if they like you, but on the vendor side of things is when we take care of our professional vendors that we [music] absolutely rely on these people, when we take care of

them as the client, holy smokes, do they bend over backwards for you. [music] You know what I mean? >> Yeah. is there's there's this enormous amount of loyalty. I'm I've never done it before, Jim, but I'm going to take some goodies to my CPA's office. He's only two miles down the street. I'm going to do that first thing tomorrow morning. [laughter] >> Promise you it'll work. I promise you it'll work. >> I'm going to give that a try. Well, Jim, it's been a real pleasure having

you on today. This has been a real treat talking about something that we don't normally talk about and this is a relevant topic to all of us. >> Who's on the podcast today? Our business owners. [music] So, uh, thank you. And if you're not a business owner, you still need a CPA. So, >> definitely >> CPA. >> Yeah. Our our best friend, anybody that draws an income, no matter if it's 1099 or or if you're an employee. [music] So, thank you again, Jim, and thank you

to our listeners for being on the podcast today. Uh we hope you enjoyed today's episode and of course, [music] give us a like, share a review on any podcast platform that you use. And then, uh don't forget to uh of course uh [music] give Jim some love with his contact information. and thank him as well for being willing to be free and share his uh share his thoughts with us today. Jim, thank you again >> to our [music] listeners. >> Yes, we wish you Jim and

we wish our listeners the very best of success. Take care everyone. [music] >> [music] [music]