The Sweet Spot: The Balanced Approach in Dental Marketing with Rebecca Neill

[music] >> Welcome to the navigating dental insurance podcast, where we don't take from insurance [music] companies. Here are your hosts, Mr. Jordan Comstock and Mr. Ben Tuinei. >> Welcome to another exciting episode of the navigating dental insurance podcast. My name is Ben Tuinei and I'm one of your hosts [music] for this podcast. We created this podcast sort of to cover all things insurance um from the perspective of sort of finding out tips, techniques, um ways to manage insurance in the dental practice, but it doesn't stop

there. As you know, when it comes to practice management and the business of dentistry, yes, we're dealing with a lot of insured patients, but there's so many other things as it pertains to operating a dental practice when you look at it from a lens of what's going to get me the most success, right? Or help me build the practice of my dreams, you know? And so, we bring on a number of different guests to cover a number of different topics. And uh today, I have um

a really fun guest. Uh uh Rebecca from Is it pronounced Verasoni? I've never >> Verasoni. It's a great fan. [laughter] >> Well, it's Rebecca from Verasoni that's joining us today and I had the privilege of being able to interview her. And uh Jordan may join us sometime throughout this podcast, so stay tuned for when he pops in. He's usually the life of our party here, Rebecca. He He brings all the jokes, the smiles, and the laughter. >> [laughter] >> Okay, we'll make our own jokes until

he gets here. That's okay. >> There you go. Well, Rebecca, tell us tell us a little bit about your background. Like how how did you start in dentistry and what sort of motivated you to pick to pick dentistry as a career? >> Yeah, well, within my role uh at Verasoni, it's a little bit unique. So, we're an integrated marketing communications firm. So, we do work um across industries, so not just in the dental space, though a vast majority of our clients are in healthcare. Dentistry just

happens to be my little bit of a passion because I think their business models are so unique and there are have been so many different challenges that dentists and private practice owners and you know, with the DSO rollouts that these folks have really faced that I've had a great time identifying these challenges and helping these practices really work through them from a communications perspective. So, within my role, I work a lot with different practices on their branding, identifying who they are, who they want to be,

big picture, what story they're trying to tell and how they're different, then helping these practices actually identify what their business goals are. Not everybody wants to grow and not everybody wants to be at 15 locations. Some people just want to take care of their community and really provide bread and butter dentistry. And from there, identifying their goals, we get to build out these beautiful strategic plans of how to marry communications to business goals and then get practices to where they want to be. And like you

might know, Ben, then for some of our practices, we actually get to implement these plans, too, and really work as almost an outsourced CMO with a full marketing department behind us at the team at Verasoni. So, it's a unique role and dentists just, you know, they they have it tough right now, especially in the PPO space. It's different like than medical, it's different than certain certain like plastics, and I really enjoy it. >> Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, I've seen you in live action advising clients. I'm

very impressed with what you do from the perspective of marketing, brand positioning, and just the full scope of things that you've helped coach well, Dr. Oleg that you and I kind of worked with uh uh for for a few years now. Well, that's awesome. And what sort of brought you into dentistry? Like why why did you choose this as a career? >> You know, I did >> shouldn't say dentistry. I'm I'm sorry. >> Or marketing? >> [laughter] >> You you had mentioned that it's not just

dentistry, it's other industries, too. But uh what what sort of brought you to this whole role of uh like in the in marketing? Like what what has brought you to this? >> Oh, absolutely. Um I think it's really human connection. And so my background, I've done a lot in the hospitality space. Like fresh out of school, that's where I thought I wanted to be. And the ability to connect with another individual, I think is such a beautiful thing. And the best way to do that for

businesses is through their communications and their branding strategies. So that's my passion. It comes down to human connection and storytelling. There's nothing better in my book. >> Mhm. Well, storytelling, I love I love stories. >> [laughter] >> So you mentioned branding. Um so when it comes to branding, like like when you really looked at it from um just sort of a professional perspective, a lot of times when I drive down the street, I see Well, we all see dental practices, right? And it's the name of

the practice is almost always the name of the dentist, right? Or the name of the previous dentist who started it. Um how important is branding for dental practices? And what steps can they take or a dentist can take to sort of develop a more like a a stronger brand position or brand identity? >> Yeah, that's actually It's a great question. Um branding is really crucial for dental practices across the board. And I don't think about I don't think people think about branding the same way that

we do at Verasoni. And it's interesting that you say you drive down the street and you see their sign. Your brand is so much more than just your logo. Your brand is so much more than just your tagline. Essentially, your brand is really how you make people feel over time. When you think about the best brands out there, they elicit a certain feeling. Think about, you know, when you get that piece of mail from American Express that comes in and it feels like a wedding invitation.

It elicits like a certain feeling in your core. The same thing is true about dentistry. And I think the steps to really develop a really strong brand, it starts by identifying and developing your patient experience. How do you want patients to feel when they're in your practice? Um what sort of experience do you want to build? And essentially, what do you want your patients to say about you? And why? And then from there, you really need to learn how to translate that ideal patient experience and

live it every day. Make sure it's cohesive and consistent, but then translate into words. And that really becomes like your practice story, which is your foundation of your brand. The baseline of everything you do is this is who we are, this is how we treat people, this is the why. And then you marry that to your target market. So, what type of dentistry do you want to be doing? Is it high-end cosmetic work? Is it for the family practice? And then make sure that that experience

will really resonate with your target audience. I'll give you two really good examples from clients that I work with, too. Um I work with a really high-end practice that's down in well, southern states, we'll just say. Um and they consider themselves a dental spa, which I think is a really beautiful thing. And Ben, have you ever been to like one of those really nice resorts like on an island and you walk in the door and it has a certain scent to it? >> Oh, yeah. Yeah,

all the time. >> Their dental practices, and this is a group, you walk in the door and it has this really light, beautiful scent that's just kind of calming, that has this gorgeous feel to it. And it almost gives that same sense of like coming home when you walk in there, that you know you're in a really great place. And they take it one step further, where when you're in the dental chair, you can also get like spa hand services while you're sitting there. Little complimentary

treatments that kind of take that experience to a whole 'nother level that's designed for their target audience. Would that be for the family practice that's in the Midwest? No. I have a family practice in the Midwest though that bakes fresh cookies every morning. So, it's not only just for like the kids that come into the practice, it's for everybody, the adults. They get to leave with like a nice little chocolate chip in their pocket. So, it's really about defining what that experience is and then really

tying that to your overarching story. And then I would say like the final piece is then you pick your channels. Where is that your target audience that you want to meet? How do we deploy that message and bring them on to into the practice? Make it sound so kind of simple, it really isn't. It's a complex piece I think even practices struggle with about like, you know, who do I want to be? What makes me different? And we always challenge our clients to dig a little

deeper cuz sometimes they'll come back and say, you know, my my differentiating factor is I do great dentistry. We have to say, great. So does the guy down the street or at least that's what he's telling his patients. So, you need to take it one step further to be memorable. >> That's that's interesting and amazing. It kind of reminds me about um I used to go to the DoubleTree. I used to always stay at the DoubleTree because you get that, you know, the warm cookies when

you when you check in. >> Oh, yeah. >> And then the Westin is now one of my new favorites. And mainly because when you walk in the Westin, you smell tea tree oil. It's a very calm and soothing, you know, it's it's what they a lot of times is the same scent that you would smell when you're getting a professional massage, you know, you kind of have that almost immediate calming effect, you know? And I noticed that the brand that type of brand positioning maybe attracts

different types of people, right? Um like for instance, I don't go to the DoubleTree anymore because uh I don't I eat very little sugar these days and I'm like I >> [laughter] >> I don't want to waste that. I mean, actually I stayed at the DoubleTree last month in in LA because all the other it was spring start of spring break. Every single hotel was sold out unless you wanted to pay a thousand dollars a night. I found a DoubleTree, but I didn't eat the cookies,

you know? But that's the brand positioning you get. You attract people uh exactly what you said, you know? You you you have your core values and then um uh how you promote yourself is who you're going to attract, right? >> Yeah. And it's memorable. It has to be memorable and almost like a good story, too. Having those little pieces, that's something that you want to tell your friends and family about. Oh, I get to go to this office and you know, I leave with a cookie.

It's my favorite part after, you know, going in and having my cleanings done or my exam. It's my little treat. Whatever it may be, something that's really memorable. >> Yeah. No, that's awesome. So, when it comes to this whole idea of uh new patients, what what are you finding these days in terms of the effective channels to attract these type of well, patients in general? >> Yeah. Um, in dentistry and I always have to have these conversations with clients across the board, it's balancing both the

new patients, but also your existing patients. Sometimes it feels like there's such um, you know, practices are start for new patients. Those are the numbers that they always look at, but what I tend to look at is the lifetime value of your patient. And if you're actually retaining them. Um, cuz sometimes, you know, there's that need, there's that ask, what's the channel, how do we get them in the door? But then my question is, how do you have space in your schedule? Can you actually really

balance those new patients and care for them long-term? And I'm sure you know, Ben, even still we're at we're hurting for hygienists these days, right? Most of my practices the everybody's on the hiring boards. We all need more hygienists. You need to make sure that not bringing in too many patients that you actually can't care for them long-term and put your focus on those existing patients. Cuz think about these things, you already have their trust, which is the biggest piece. They know you, they come to

your office. So, think about what other services might benefit your patients. Make sure you're fully going through and diagnosing, you have strong treatment plans and you can work on your acceptance rates with those existing patients. And then those patients, when they're well cared for, they become your biggest channel. I want to say it's probably like 70% if we did looked at some numbers, um of patients come from existing patients. It's all word-of-mouth referrals. Those are your your best cheerleaders. And then of course for that other

little 30%, that's where you can look into your digital marketing, your Google Ads, making sure you have a beautiful strong presence online, that you're telling your story maybe through video, ways that people can really connect to you right off the bat. But I always say, take care of home base first and really make sure you don't have a back door problem and that people aren't leaving the practice and or cuz then you're never going to break that cycle. And it's better to take care of home

before you're spending money on bringing in patients from the outside. >> That makes perfect sense. I always thought that um um the the greatest way to market yourself is to get your own patients to be your best your greatest cheerleaders, you know? >> Yeah. >> Um mainly because you look at uh you mentioned this, the dynamics and trust, right? Um think about a lot of the like where you spend money in the past. A lot of times when you're spending almost when you're making a big

purchase, whether it's like an expression an expression machine or a vehicle, right? Um we what do we do as human beings in in in this digital age? We get we look for validation from other people, right? Referrals, recommendations from other people whether it's a good or not, you know. And uh I I've Yeah, that 70% is is actually mind-blowing to me because I always believed that it was sort of in that range. 70% of your new patients come from your existing patients. That's That's quite amazing.

>> Absolutely. And when you think about that trust factor, dentistry is so intimate. So, you're going to ask your friends, you're going to ask your family for a personal recommendation, even more so than looking at Google reviews. Because these are people that, you know, you're going to go to the folks that you know and trust, not some stranger online that's giving a great review. Now, are those still important? Absolutely. But at the end of the day, you want to hear it from someone who's actually experienced

it that you have that personal connection with. >> Absolutely. That's excellent. >> What about education, uh Rebecca? Like when you when you um talk about um marketing, where does the patient get the information on the coming way? And what are some of the effective ways to educate patients about this whole world of dentistry and oral health? >> Yeah. >> [clears throat] >> Um education's key. I think it's really important for all dental practices, but I think it's the the approach that's really important. Um where sometimes

dentists get really excited, and I do too. I get excited over data. Sometimes dentists will get excited over a new laser or over technology. And I always caution that you have to keep in mind who your audience is at the end of the day. Um sometimes, if you get a little too technical, or if you're talking about things that might be really important to you, great. But you have to tie that back to the patient. How does that new piece of technology implement them? How does

it make for a better patient experience? How is it more comfortable? Tie it back to what it means to the patient at the end of the day, and don't get caught up in like the nitty-gritty of the technology. I also think for education as a whole, I love video. Video is such a powerful tool where it almost feels like you're looking that patient in the eye when they're on your website or on social media and you can educate them on, you know, a plethora of different

topics. It also allows providers to be a little less scary. Like I think about you and I, Ben. I've known you for a couple years now working on different accounts and we've never met in person. It's all done through video, but I feel connected to you and I feel like I know you already and you're not someone scary behind a white coat. You're someone that I already feel connected to where video is just this powerful powerful tool that kind of breaks down that barrier and really

allows for a human connection at the end of the day between a provider and a patient. Video can be a little expensive sometimes, less so now. I think people can make videos on their iPhones if they wanted to, but the one piece if you're going to produce like really high quality, bringing like a production team, a marketing firm give you direction, I always try to like focus on some evergreen content, things that things that are going to last for a really long time to get the

most out of your investment. And certainly doctors even talking about why they like dentistry. Is that educational around oral health? Maybe not, but humanizing these docs on, you know, why they do what they do, show a little passion and paint them as people that's going to go a long way. >> Yeah, I love that. I like that. I remember a few years ago I I I did the CPY meetings for our local state association which you go to every single district in your state to deliver

news, deliver what your association is doing with some some continuing education as well. And I I made the mistake of traveling for 5 hours with five other dentists and they kept asking me about my experience as a kid, and and uh I had this experience as a kid where my uncle's a dentist, and uh in this uh our small island in American Samoa, which is that photo there is American Samoa. >> Beautiful. >> That's That's uh if you watch the movie Maui, uh that is uh

Te Fiti there. That's where they're lying down right there. That's kind of where they >> Oh, wow. Gorgeous. >> Yeah. So, anyway, um we uh ran out of uh numbing agents, lidocaine, uh and all all that stuff, and so they were putting a pause on a lot of the treatment that could wait, except for mine. Like, I had to come in and get some some some work done like ASAP. Um but they didn't have any ability to numb me. So, they proceeded with treatments, drilling into

my teeth, and two big Samoan guys holding me down, and I think I was like 6 or 7 years old. I can't remember the exact age. But I I I grew a taste for Oh, I grew like a legitimate fear of the dental practice. Not just dentists. And I made the stupid mistake of telling my five dentist friends that man, I I hate the dentist. And I'm like, "Fuck, you never say that to a dentist as a professional, you know?" And it just slipped, and I

had to clarify myself. I was like, "Well, it's not that I hate you guys. It's more so I have a legitimate I had a legitimate phobia for just dental practices, the sound of the drills in general, you know? Um and and I think we've come sort of a long way in dentistry from technology, uh to customer service, patient experience, right? To where like what you do, in my opinion, observing just the whole journey of that my personal journey of dentistry, is my experience these days is

so much better than it was way back in the '80s, right? So, when you talk about the emphasis on patient experience, um what sort of strategies do you recommend that dental practices implement to allow for patients to have a very pleasant journey in your practice? >> Yeah, absolutely. And Ben, I first want to say there's a lot of people out there like you that maybe had one really bad experience and it's going to take these providers a lot more time to to earn back their trust

and tell them, you know, we aren't doing dentistry like we were doing in the '80s. Even you think about like um the different scanners now, I remember when I went in for for braces as a kid and I thought I was just going in to just for a normal exam examination and having those molds put on my teeth and having to sit there for so long, I still remember the tears streaming down my cheeks, um just being so uncomfortable and being so ill-prepared. Um it's almost

like a phobia that these folks have to get over and you're definitely not alone and I think there's far more of us out there. I won't say I hate the dentist because of what I do for a living, but it's not my favorite place and it's certainly not the favorite places of a lot of people. Um the patient experience is is really, really important uh as a whole and like I said, your brand is about the way you make people feel, the way you treat people.

Ultimately, patients don't really know um a good dentist from a great dentist. It's It's difficult for us to know when you're in your in our mouth what type of dentistry is being delivered. What we really know is, you know, how do you make me feel? How was I treated sitting there? And do I need to come back? And hopefully the answer is no, I don't need to come back at the end of the day. But then where do you go to differentiate yourself from a patient

experience standpoint? Um I think you need to look towards technology and you need to look at how easy is it also to do business with you at the end of the day. So even before you have somebody sitting in your chair and you're going to make them feel a certain way, you're going to deliver, you know, that warm cookie at the end or whatever it may be, you first need to get them there. And oftentimes, there's a barrier for how easy it is to do business

with you. Um patients are demanding more and more consumeristic um experiences from our healthcare providers. Think about like why we order things from Amazon. Might not love the company as a whole, but it's so easy and it just shows up. It's here, it's convenient. Um so, think about the different ways that you can infuse convenience into what you do in your everyday. And that can be, you know, do your patients have access to their patient records? Um is there an app that they can go on

and see, you know, when was the last time and what's my treatment plan? What do I need to be thinking about? Um do you do online payments? That's my favorite one. I don't want to have to mail in a check. I don't know the last time you sent a check. I don't do it that often. I have to dig out my checkbook from a dresser drawer somewhere and pull that one out. Let me pay online. Send me a text message so I know what I owe

and I can just log in and take care of it. Little ways that you can enhance that overall experience really just comes down to making it easy at the end of the day. And there's so many technologies that do it for you in the dental space and so many really great ones. >> Yeah, absolutely. You You know, you hear a lot about how we want to eliminate the barriers of entry, right? For for new people to come into the practice or business. Um but what came

to mind as you were speaking was eliminating other barriers, right? Uh make sure that the patient has a smooth and pleasant experience, right? Like for instance, um I get text messages all the time to pay for things. Mhm. And on on every smart device, you can save your credit card information or do Apple Pay and just double click to pay. And the The that send those to me, I pay them immediately, you know? Because I just I'll forget. If I don't do it now, I'm going

to forget, right? So, you do have that convenience that they in terms of using technology. I witness that with many different businesses. I could see how that would be so great with the perspective of you know, influencing patients to stay long-term and refer their friends and family. >> Oh, absolutely. It goes the other way, too. Have you ever been to a provider where they send you like your new patient paperwork ahead of time and you do your homework? You know, I was always the best student.

I always did my homework, always beat deadlines, do it on time. So, I enter in all my information, it's all done, and then I step into that office and they hand me that paperwork again. It's the most, you know, upsetting thing in the world because you're like, I already did this. Why are you making me do it again? So, the other piece is, if you're going to have those technologies in play, you need to make sure they're working and to not and to not make your

patients do things more than once. >> Yeah. Yeah, I think that's key. We we've actually run into that at the dental practice time and time again. And you're absolutely correct. It's it's an annoyance to people, especially like the wife. Funny thing is, I had a need to get a root canal. Well, yeah, root canal. I I broke number seven here at the airport meeting a freaking coffee kiosk dude. And he broke number seven right off the online Um, so my friend, here in Utah, when we

came back in Florida, he's a mini dentist and he said, "You got to go to Randy doctor." He said, "He's the best restorative dentist in this area to see." And we did. And my wife had a need to have some work done on something, too. She went there, too. But the funny thing is is that when you look at the the reputation of doctors, the doctors we were going to another friend of mine, um, the rating and and age and experience was a lot younger than

I thought. It's significantly more and he has a phenomenal rating among all the specialists around here. They all are top tier restorative and but my wife wants to go back to the other practice. I asked her why. She's like, "Well, I just didn't feel the warmth and fuzzies there." I had those problems. I felt them there. And they're more expensive. So tell her I would rather have experience like what exactly you said in the beginning is how you make people feel and having that patient experience

and journey. Uh I I think it's it's it's a dead given that most patients have no way to measure quality quality dentistry other than how you make them feel as a patient. >> And also patients are going to have different priorities, too. So that setting, that brand, is the most important thing that you can do. Um and it will will really help define what sort of patient you're going to attract. And certainly, you need to do the research to make sure those patients exist in your

immediate vicinity cuz people aren't going to drive hours to get to you. But thinking about like what would be important to the people that you want to do dentistry for and then highlighting those things. You can highlight convenience. If I'm, you know, a mom of four, I'm not, and I'm super busy, being able to book appointments online and get in and out and maybe even like text the front office if I'm running late or if I have a question or if I need to reschedule, that's

huge for a certain type of patient. Or maybe you're looking to do more high-end cosmetic work and I want to walk in and I want to feel like I'm at a spa. I don't want to think about the time that I was at my orthodontist and I had this awful experience. I want it to be completely blown out of the water and not even in my mind. It's all based on like who you want to be, what kind of dentistry you want to do, and building

up experience and making it consistent. Consistency is the key. >> Very good. I have a couple of insurance-related questions for you as it ties into marketing if you don't mind a background. >> Yeah, of course. >> Can we talk about sort of um uh is it the whole world of marketing strategies? Uh and then when you combine that with the current trend of practices that are going out of the network. What is sort of your recommendation for dentists that are sort of thinking I'm I'm really

want to get rid of some of these field contracts, but I'm worried about new patient flow. Like there's this perception that you're like when you're in network, that's what drives new patients. Um that's false by the way. For listeners, that's actually not the number The statistics do not support that being in network drives patients. But there's a fear, right? With that kind of the doctors dropping insurance with the respective of new patients. What's your absolute for that from just a a marketing and branding perspective for

those that are thinking about going out of network and the whole question of what kind of marketing strategies should I put in place? >> Oh, yeah. That's a that's a big one. I'll break it down to a couple parts. Um number one, you need to have a solid plan. Um I work with practices all across the country and certainly um in dropping insurance is something that comes up on my day-to-day. And occasionally, it's out of a need because we're locked into these contracts and at these

reimbursement rates and they're just not working for us anymore. Um but there's also always so much fear that goes alongside of it. Under- understandably so. Um a big change like that for the practice is a little bit scary. Um but number one, you need to have a solid plan. And within that plan, you can't drop the insurances is Um I've had offices that try to do it. They try to do it quick. It gets a little bit dirty. You need to have a long enough plan,

that way you can put in a solid communication strategy. And that first starts with having candid human conversations with your patients. Um, it's going to be scary for your patients, too. Cuz quite frankly, most patients don't understand their dental insurance, period. They don't know how it works. They just know, I need to go to someone in network, that's how I get the most coverage. And some of them don't understand, you know, there's out of network benefits. There's other things that we can do. We can work

with all different insurances, whether we're in network or not. So, having candid conversations to start chairside is a beautiful approach. And it can even be before you've made the decision. You could sit next to, you know, Sally in her chair and say, you know, "Hey Sally, um, we're thinking about making this change. This is what it might mean for you. What do you think? What questions do you have?" Pick some of your favorite patients, the ones that you have really great relationships with, and have those

little test conversations. You get a little temperature check on it. Then once you actually do make the commitment and you make that decision, you need to own the conversation, fully. We all know that those insurance companies are going to send out letters, and those letters are going to say something along the lines of, "Hey patient, you need to find a new dentist." We know that's not the case. So, making sure we get ahead of that, um, we have not just clear written communication that goes out

to patients, not just clear email communication that goes out to patients, but also making sure that our team are also equipped to have these conversations, again, on a human-to-human level. It's always going to be human-to-human, you know, phone call, when they're in the office, especially if we're planning far enough ahead, allow them to come back into the practice a few times before that drop date, so you can answer those questions, you can look them in the face, and you can really take the time to explain

what their new benefits would be or what their other options may be. So, it's it's scripting, it's letters, it's just making sure that you're fully fully prepared across the board, so you can make that transition really really well. I've seen it done quickly in the past. Never recommend that you're going to want to drop insurance and, you know, you need to give 60-days notice or or going to give 60-days and come right out. Plan it ahead of time. Make and make sure that everybody on your

team is on the same page and take it one step forward. Make sure your team understands that this not only benefits the practice, but ultimately it's going to benefit your patients long-term. I think it's really important that your team knows that in their soul. They know that they're doing the right thing for this patient base because then that's going to translate into the conversations that they're having. >> What I mean excellent and amazing pastor. I see kids. >> That I see. >> [laughter] >> Gave me

an epiphany. Like as you were talking I was thinking about just this entire conversation that we're having. Um when we talk about education, patient experience, value issue. Um making sure to complete with your specialty when they come into the health practice, right? >> Influencing those those likability emotions, right? Like yeah, I really like I like I like everybody bringing that to you. >> I I think um when it comes to sort of your approach on this whole world of of marketing. Um from a patient acquisition

perspective. Um the battle's not done. You know, it's a patient retention at the play and making sure people have a good experience. To me I I I I I I believe that's all tied in with the actual out of network training and information, right? People already trust you. The conversations that you mentioned that are good to have with patients to give them a heads up about, you know, this whole idea of of going out of A lot of times when you start having that conversation, the

trust is already there. It's a done deal at that point. It's just more more of a disclosure and process, right? Making sure patients understand and then are educated on this whole level about network. So, when it comes to sort of um that transition um Rebecca going out of network. Um do you recommend that practices beef up their marketing efforts to attract more new patients? And if so, what's the why behind all what Like what are sort of some metrics that you would want to look at

in an effort to help the guide the practices in the process of transition out of network with the one bunch of dental plans. Sort of from a marketing perspective, what do you look at to help determine that? >> Yeah. Absolutely. Well, I would say that you have to be prepared for there to be an attrition rate when you do drop insurance. You're not going to retain every patient. That is just the reality of the situation. Some people, they are tied to their insurance, financial reasons, and

they're they're going to go where they're going to be in network. I think the the way that you protect that is through those, you know, robust communication plans and strategies that are well-baked and you know what you're doing. Um also, I I know uh Jordan's not going to be on here right now, but um having an alternative with the those um patients as well of something like an in-house membership plan so you can have those conversations of, you know, insurance isn't your only option. An in-house

membership plan, I do think of it as a marketing tool. That's a piece that can be an investment for you. Um as something as that's another benefit and another piece that plays into the overarching um patient experience. But at the end of the day, you need to think about going out of network is going to financially benefit the practice. If it didn't, you wouldn't be doing that. So, what you also want to do and what I recommend to my my practices, is that you want to

take you may want to beef up that marketing budget a little bit. It's a hard reality, but making sure that you can fill in that attrition rate a little bit with some of those new patients mean means spending a few additional marketing dollars. And to take that bump that you're going to get in the practice from going out of network and reinve- invest that into the practice through your marketing channels. And then in terms of numbers that we look at, it's really number one is going

to be the attrition rate. How many patients are we losing through this experience? And And I know for you, you're able to do some modeling, too, on what maybe that will look like based on who the insurance is, what state you're in, what the out-of-network benefits there are. There's so many different factors, um in addition to having a really strong communications plan and strategy that's well baked. And then look at, okay, based on our predicted attrition rate numbers, how do we need to beef that up?

What is our average cost per new patient acquisition? Do a little backwards math there to see what the increased marketing budget may need to be to keep you at a comfortable level. And then take it one step further then afterwards, when you think about the cost per new patient acquisition, it's going to be important at this stage because we're setting those marketing budgets. But then long-term, when we think about um you know, retention rates for the practice, it's ultimately going to be the lifetime value of

the patient that we really want to look at. So, that way when you're calculating your return on marketing investment, you're not just saying, "Okay, new patient, this is what it cost me, this is what they brought in on their first visit." No, how much uh you know, we kept them for for years. How much did they spend with the practice over that time? That's our true ROI on that initial investment. So, I think there are some hard realities that you can't just plan to go completely

out of network and do nothing else and just let your patients fall to the wayside unless you're you have too many pre-patients at the practice and we we can't support them with our team and you're busting at the seams. Okay, great. That may be a great decision for you. But if you're looking for growth, it will take an additional investment. >> That's awesome. That's really excellent. Well, Rebecca, we can sit here and chat about all things marketing, branding, you know, and >> All day. >> [laughter]

>> There's a lot to talk about, a lot of questions to go I recognize that uh you have other commitments too, but I mean it gets you. So, we really thank you. Just want to say thank you for your time today. Uh you know how valuable uh your time is and so thank you for imparting your wisdom and knowledge of investment. Uh how can listeners uh get a hold of you if they have any questions about anything? >> Sure. Uh well, first of all, thank you

for having me, Ben. This has been an amazing experience. But um our website is just verasoni.com, v e r a s o n i.com. There's a little contact form on there. Shoot me over a note. Come right over to me and I'm happy to answer any other questions that you have. >> That's awesome. I'll check that out, folks. Uh I'll post the that website, verasoni.com, in the show notes. So, please forgive me if I mispronounce anything. Otherwise, people find [music] it something else, but check that

out. Contact Rebecca with questions as you know, she's an open book and is most certainly a really knowledgeable expert in this space of communications, patient retention, and and all these marketing. Any closing thoughts, Rebecca, as we kind of wrapping things up for today? >> I would just say focus on your experience. Experience is going to be the core of what you do because you can have the most brilliant, beautiful marketing campaigns with the most beautiful creative, and the best-looking logo, but if you don't have that

strong strong patient experience, what do you have at the end of the day? And be patient. A brand is not built overnight. Coca-Cola did not become Coca-Cola in in 3 weeks. It takes time, consistency, and commitment, but y'all [music] can do it. >> Awesome. Rebecca, thank you so much again for for your time today. It's been such a a wonderful pleasure to have you on the show today. [music] And to our listeners, thank you for tuning in again for another amazing episode of the Navigating Diligence

podcast. [music] Don't forget to check out saynotopeos.com. We are updating the website, so we're going to have more educational content there in addition to each of the podcast episodes that we're going to push out. Until next [music] time, we wish everybody the best of success. >> [music] [music]