The 5 Barriers Holding Dentists Back

What's up, everybody? Welcome to another exciting episode of the Automatic Patient Podcast. I'm your co-host today, Jordan Comstock. With me, as usual, Dr. Dan Nelson. What is up, Dan? How's it going, man? Uh things are great, dude. Just uh I mean, we're chuckling because uh we're about to drop some bombs. I'm ex- >> [laughter] >> Yeah. >> to get into this. I I I haven't really talked to you Jordan, this is it, man. You're the exclusive first person that I'm really going to unload all this

on. So, uh >> [laughter] >> It's great. It's the basis for a lot of work that I've put into and and um yeah, man. And and I'll I'll get into like where this was born from and yeah, dude, this is going to be a fun podcast. >> [laughter] >> Okay. Sweet, then. Today, we're going to be talking about the five barriers of success. And Dan, you've been I mean, how long have you been running a practice now? It seems like an helping practices. Been a while,

yeah. You You've You've watched a lot of practices come and go. And uh it sounds like you've noticed some patterns along the way. Oh, man. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, so Well, first, let me just I'll do Let's just start out. I'm going to I'm going to uncork this and it should ruffle >> Uncork it, baby. Yeah. >> Yeah, this should ruffle some feathers. Um Sweet. It's fun. I've identified five primary barriers to success within a dental practice. Um and it's probably beyond that, but I'm not

a It's probably universal, yeah. >> right? I'm a I'm a practice expert. And so, um and and I'm going to tell you the story how I came to these five barriers. But the five barriers are are arrogance, ignorance, ambivalence, uh fear, and capacity. And let me give a little background on on where this was born from. Um And this is you know, probably It was born of frustration. I'll I'll say that right off the bat. >> [laughter] >> As you guys if you guys have, you

know, I guess I can give a little background on myself. I am a psychology major. I'm fascinated with psychology. I love to know how the human brain works. Probably because I'm broken myself, you know, trying to figure [laughter] myself Welcome to the club, Dan. Welcome to the club. Trying to figure out the rat's nest that makes up my brain, you know what I mean? Like just trying to sort out And so I've always had this deep fascination. I've never stopped studying it. It's always been a

an area that I've I've loved to continue to learn in. >> Interesting. Well, and I think that it's beneficial within the world of of dentistry for understanding your patients and certainly it's beneficial with within the consulting world of of, you know, getting to better understand the limitations that we have within ourselves or even that we put on ourselves. And so the way that that was probably the like foundational groundwork for these these five barriers, but the way it really came out was in a I feel

bad bad for Jared and and Ryan because they were we were on a group phone call and we were meeting with a client and he had asked he was a junior partner in a in a practice and he had asked that we meet with his senior partner. And he was the junior partner was frustrated with multiple things and they were hoping to find some resolution to it. He was hoping that we could mitigate and meet >> yeah. And so we hop on this phone call with

this doc, Dr. X. And uh Dr. X. Dr. X and Dr. Y is his senior partner. Well, as we're getting into the conversation, Dr. Y keeps injecting and and and saying some stuff. He wasn't overtly like rude necessarily. I mean, he was rude, but he wasn't like he wasn't combative at first, right? He he wasn't combative. But it became really obvious that he felt like we weren't necessary and that he was bugged that he was on this phone call at all with us, right? And he

he just didn't like it. And so he kept throwing in these little like jabs and and jives and and like trying to stick it to us here and there in some of comments. And after a while, I was just like and the poor poor Dr. X was so frustrated and he's like, "Look, I'm trying to figure out some solutions here and I'm getting stonewalled by my partner on this call. I'm getting stonewalled." And so Which is very common in just business in general. >> Oh, it's

yeah, it's business, right? >> I dealt with that with early founders as well. It happens. You know Yeah, but it's frustrating especially if you're trying to mediate all this. It was I got to a point where and you know, anyone that knows me knows that I I have a low ceiling when I I one of my core values is competency and if I start to I love it. Yeah. a lack of that, I get really irritated and and so my level of irritation got really high

and I just kind of unloaded on this poor guy and I was like, "You know what? There's three barriers to success." And I said arrogance, ignorance and ambivalence in that conversation. Yeah. I just said something along the lines of like I directed it right at him, right? And things got a little quiet. Ryan's just walking past me right here. Ryan's eyes got the size of Texas. Right. Right knows. >> [laughter] >> He remembers it well, right? He's like, "Oh gosh." And Jared's like, "Dude." [laughter] Like

they both were like, "Can't believe you just did that." And so like the the conversation wasn't going anywhere. We weren't getting anywhere within the conversation. You know, and it makes me you know, Dr. Y is not a bad guy. Dr. Y is you know, a good dude. >> course. Yeah. But in that moment, I was so frustrated and >> [laughter] >> it ended up turning out fine, but that was where I just shot the They didn't I didn't think about those. I hadn't been thinking about

those. And somewhere from the recesses of my brain, they just came out in that moment of frustration. Interesting. Yeah, and so I took those three and I really started to think on it. And you know, as I've met with a lot of docs, it's been interesting to see where our limitations are and the things that stop us from progressing and keep us from success and And so I found the other one was fear. Fear limits us in so many ways. And It really does. it it

it's hard to identify sometimes because it's tied to so many insecurities and issues that we have. And then um recently in my studies, I came upon the fifth one and that's capacity. And um capacity means, you know, and we can break down each of these a little bit more, but the cat capacity has two meanings. There's a double meaning there. One is bandwidth, you know, and I think we've all felt that limitation of capacity. The other is ability. And you know, do we have >> Skill

set ability. Exactly. And and you know, a lot of these are a poke in the ribs, right? Like if you look at any one of these five, they kind of feel like a poke in the ribs and they feel like, "Hey, like why are you being mean, Dan?" And the And it's because that there's a point where you got to rip these band-aids off and you have to look at yourself critically. And that, by the way, is one of the the the signs of higher cognition

is the ability to think about the way you think. Yeah, being aware. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah, it's an awareness. And it's it's it's processing why you do the things you do and why do you think the way you think. That is a high If you want to get to the upper echelon of intelligence and cognition, take a second to break down. I also think it's the doorway to insanity, but um There's a point where you're like, okay, I got to >> [laughter] >> put a cap on

this before I drive myself crazy. But, it is important to take a step back and say, why do I do the things that I do? And And why do I think the way I think? >> Just self-assessing. That's interesting. Yeah, that's always healthy and I would imagine with your your So, you studied psychology? Yeah, man. Like, for 6 years I studied psychology. I hadn't know that. I have a passion around that. Like, I was going to go into that early on in my career. I never

did, but I have a passion about just studying on my own. Um cuz I thought it was just fascinating. Then I found marketing. I'm like, oh, there's psychology in marketing. I like marketing. >> much. [laughter] Yeah. You know? So, no, that's really cool that you did that and that's one of your skill sets. So, arrogance, like, what what's an example of arrogance in dental running a practice? Cuz I mean I mean both of you and I have been have been in dental for a while and

I'm sure we've seen different scenarios of this, but I I look at arrogance as um you're kind of mentally distorted, right? When you're like, I'm How would you define it? I'm better than the other person, maybe? There's that. >> There's certainly that aspect, but more than anything, it's probably a level of overconfidence. Okay. So, overconfidence um thinking that they're the top whatever, dentists, entrepreneurs, sales person. Pick your industry. You know what's what's interesting about arrogance is the way that it manifests in competent people. Um and

what ends up happening is that it And there is the the traditional sense of arrogance, surely. You know, we bump into that. You know, and that's, you know, the the the the synonyms for that type of arrogance would be cockiness or >> Yeah. um you know, there's a certain almost a vanity that comes that type of arrogance, right? Where it's just that, you know, that's the type that's linked to pride and that is the I'm better than you type of arrogance and it's that's a dangerous

arrogance in and of itself. And it and it can certainly limit somebody from from finding success because and we the way we bump into that style of arrogance is I'm better than you, I don't need you. We see that a lot. You know, where we're like, "Hey, we're offering I don't need you. I know what I'm doing. You know, I'm better than you." I mean, we see that here at BoomCloud as well, right? Like totally. I don't need you. I'm better than we can do this.

Right? It's like, "Okay." You're like, "Okay, I guess I guess if you're better than that's okay, you know." But the the one that we see manifest more often and that is out there, by the way. We all know that that person. We all know that doc that's just like, "Okay, like Or my in my case that sales person or whatever, choose your your turn your employee type in my business. It's like it's pretty universal. You burn out on a conversation with that person in about 3

seconds. You know what I mean? You're like, "Okay. They're me monsters. Yeah, it's fine." It's really fun, yeah. But the the type that that is probably the more dangerous and more common type of arrogance in dentistry. So, dentists in general are highly confident people. You have very intelligent, highly confident skilled individuals and the problem is is that there's a there's a phenomenon within psychology that exists and what it is is it's when someone has a high level of competency in one area, they overestimate their competency

in other areas. And so, they feel actually better or like, "Hey, I can do it." because they are confident human beings. >> I can do anything. Yes. [laughter] I'm invincible. Yeah, I'm invin exactly. And and that's where it's it becomes problematic within business because they're like especially in in the higher level of competence you have like clinically for example, the more dangerous this pitfall is Interesting. >> within other areas. And so like take marketing for example. So let's say you have a highly competent clinician. They're

extremely good. They're going to overestimate their ability in marketing for example. So they're going to be like, oh yeah, I can do this marketing. How hard can it be? I just I just went and did this super hard procedure. Marketing's easy, you know, compared to >> [laughter] >> Well, that's not true. I mean I mean in some ways yes, it's easier, but that doesn't mean that you're equally competent within that world. >> Absolutely. >> yeah, and so that's an area of arrogance that we see manifest

all the time. And it really gets ugly in business. And so what we find is these highly competent, very good docs that really are not and and they overestimate their competency and and their um abilities to run the practice. Um and that actually breeds some of the other things that are on my list. It breeds ambivalence. Um and it certainly is a recipe for ignorance. Um you know, and and it's a little bit of that is based on some of the ignorance works its way into

there. They're not mutually exclusive these five barriers. There is overlap and they do um work together to to make things worse. But arrogance is the one that always like whenever you start the conversation off and you drop arrogance, people get like, oh yeah, you call me you call me arrogant? You know, you think I'm haughty? You know, it's like Yeah, maybe. I think we're all all a little bit >> the fact that you're you're responding that way means you're arrogant. >> [laughter] >> I mean All

right. Okay. It's hard It's a hard balance between feeling confident and and tripping over into arrogance. And I think that we need to be confident in our abilities and where we have good training and good experience and not get lost in the areas that maybe we're not as strong. And believe me, we're I'm as guilty of that as anybody. I mean, it's very very it's an easy pitfall to fall into and but I think that it there's a distinction there. And you know, I don't know,

maybe it's a combination. I think that you know, we we probably all struggle a little bit with with areas of arrogance, you know, where we're like >> Oh, sure. Yeah. I'm awesome at this. >> [laughter] >> I kick ass. No, that's funny, but also true. And yeah, so being self-aware, um, I think is like you said earlier, is is one of the key like So, okay, here's a question. With your psychology, um, uh, brain. Um, if somebody's arrogant, do they ever realize that they are arrogant?

So, that Like, how do they How do they undo that? >> [laughter] >> So, they can become more successful, right? Human beings are horrible at self-assessment. Sure, yeah. So, and where we're bad, we can do okay with traits. Like, we can understand our self-assess our traits fairly well Yeah. with some level of accuracy. What we suck at is assessing our impact on others. Um, there's a famous study, um, that came from, uh, personality theory theorists that and I don't remember the exact the numbers, but it's

the percentage that the amount that we think about people thinking about us. So, like, how much do that we worry that, oh, they're thinking or they're talking about me. Other people are thinking and talking about me. Yeah. >> They don't. First of all, they don't. Like, people don't talk about you. If they do, it's in passing. Maybe it's some gossip. Maybe it's something where that you irritated somebody, or maybe it's your birthday. Like it's very very little, right? It's a your mom is probably number one,

like the person that talks about you the most. >> Maybe, yeah, yeah. >> Maybe. Depends on your relationship with your mom, I guess. >> Yeah, but even your mom thinks about herself way more than she thinks about you. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. It's that we think about ourselves constantly. Uh-huh. That's not an arrogance. That's not a That's not It's just It's just living life. It's living life. You're navigating life, of course. >> Yeah. Um and but because of that the irony of that is that we are

so bad at assessing our impact because we look internally so much, we fail to look externally a lot. >> Interesting. And see the impact that our behavior has on others. And so we we aren't good at understanding that impact. So, okay, well how does that translate to one of these five barriers? Well, that's where these personality tests uh that type of thing come in and you can take one of those and you know, just see where you land. Yeah. Really, you have to start to focus

on how does the world interact with me? It's like what what do I get back? When I put stuff out and and that's where it's hard cuz we don't perceive what's coming back at us very well because Brené Brown is famous for talking about the narrative we write ourselves. We write all these narratives. Yeah. And that's where the confusion comes. And so a good way to find out if someone And most of the narratives can be distorted. They're always distorted. Always. Our accuracy is terrible. >>

[laughter] >> The best way is either to take a test or find someone that you trust. A sibling is a good idea. Yeah. Siblings are great cuz they're >> A Sweet. A spouse, a parent, someone that is willing to tell you the honest truth, and you have to be willing to receive that honest >> Accept it, yeah. And that's the hard part is that you have to be open to the truth, and you have to And being we're not good uh being susceptible or feeling uh

that you know, open to the reality of our situation. And nobody wants to hear that maybe they have a trait or a behavior that is less than ideal. >> That's not helpful, yeah. Yes. >> [laughter] >> Sure. And I would say this, arrogance is the one you can find is that if people if you find that when people criticize you or they give you They're trying to be of help to help you out in some capacity, You get defensive. >> back on I know better than

they do, Yeah, it's so defensive. >> then you probably have an arrogance problem. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, I I mean I've noticed that with people, too, right? It's I mean both you and I run businesses that would involve people. And I I've noticed that, too, like if you like have an intention to help coach and uh a a certain employee, and they come back and they get defensive or or or whatever you you just said there. Um that's really hard person to coach to when it

comes to employees, right? It's like, "Oh, man. All I'm I'm trying to do is just coach this person. Not I'm not trying to hurt their feelings." >> help, yeah. >> Try to help. >> [laughter] >> And defensiveness Defensiveness can be born of insecurity. Yeah. >> So, you have to watch out for that. It's more of do I come away from this interaction feeling like I'm better or I could do better than what they're offering or telling me. That does >> arrogance. And so, if you're >>

"Oh, that advice was bullshit." [laughter] Yes. I'm better than than that. >> I I would show you or someone brings something to the table of something that you've done and they're like critiquing or giving you some, you know, some type of positive, you know, some type of feedback and you find yourself you know, um frustrated not because of your insecurity, but because you're you feel like your competency level in this thing is higher. Yeah. What do they know? That is arrogance. So, you have to watch

out for that. >> Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense. Okay, so ignorance now, what like what are signs you may be ignorant running your practice? That's This is the hard one. So, ignorance is cuz you don't know what you don't know. >> I know. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. So, so ignorance is extremely difficult, um in that it is one of the things that you're bleeding around fumbling through things blindly hoping to figure something out and it's almost always touch the stove scenario when you figure out

like how do you become, you know, educated? Well, you touch the stove. >> You touch the stove, yep. You didn't know. Yeah. I've touched the stove a ton. Yeah, right? [laughter] Yeah, I did. This is where mentors and coaches in your life are paramount. Yeah. And this there's a fantastic book written by Dan Sullivan and Ben Hardy called Who Not How. They were uh one I've read that book. Uh Ben was just here in town. He just He just messaged me and invited me to do

a a retreat. Um I couldn't go, but I was definitely interested. Yeah, that great author. Awesome psychologist, right? >> Yes, absolutely. Yeah, and if you haven't read that book, I highly recommend you go read it. Um but that is all about putting the right people into your life to be able to help fill those gaps, right? And And also I mean that book is also about like >> [snorts] >> staying in your lane and finding the people that can do the things that you think you

can do better than you can, that actually do them better than you can, right? Yeah. Um but the the ignorance barrier is extremely tough. The The one that's the most dangerous is the head in the sand ignorance. Which happens a lot in the dental space. Even even like like when I when I managed my dad's dental lab and and the uh you know when like CEREC started coming out. So that was my like that was before I started BoomCloud. I was in that era of managing

a dental lab when the CEREC started coming out and it really disrupted the dental lab industry. >> Yeah. My [clears throat] dad just like love him, he's great dude. Um but he would [clears throat] put his head in the sand. He's like, "I don't want to deal with all this stuff." And my grandpa would too cuz my grandpa owned the prac- the the dental lab as well. And you know because me and my brother were there, Justin, we wanted to get into the technology and we

helped them pull their heads up. But that was that was really challenging um because they just wanted to bury like, "We've done this the this way for I mean the the lab has been around since 1906 and my grandpa bought it I think in the '50s. So they're like, "We've been doing it this way for X amount of time." And they just wanted to bury their heads in the sand. But then eventually they they turned and adopted like the technology and they're thriving now. But that

was really difficult uh to deal with that type of behavior uh back then. And you can see elements of of ambivalence in there and you can see elements of fear in there, right? Like >> Yeah. Absolutely. It's all connected. It is. And and that's a great example. I think that these are the symptoms of ignorance in an office is that you don't let here's you don't know your KPIs. That's like one of the easiest ones. And I don't mean memorize them. You know what I mean?

I'm Yeah, you know how to find them, know what they mean, and all that stuff. Right. And Yeah, I don't memorize. I look at my business data every day. And I I don't memorize everything, right? No way. And then this that's what I mainly do, right? So, if you're running your practice, working with patients, the expectation is not to memorize your KPIs. It's just know that know how to get them and why they're important. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and and that's if if someone's going, "Okay,

how do I know if I'm being ignorant?" That's one of the easiest ways is do I know the vitality numbers of my practice? And and like I say, not memorize, but do I know how to get them? Do I have someone giving them to me? Yeah. Am I able to keep my >> looking at them weekly or monthly, whatever certain cadence? Yep. The other the other things about ignorance is do I know what my team is doing? And what I mean by that is I don't

mean micromanaging your team. I mean is there >> Five roles and responsibilities. Yes. >> Yes. What are they doing? Like what are their roles? Do they have a daily action plan? What is it? Exactly. >> stuff. That's how I look at it. Very cool. Um so, just knowing what's happening versus like, "Well, I hope Becky up front is doing what needs to be done." Yeah. Yeah. And that's And and you can see that ignorance is can be tied to arrogance, you know? If you're like, "Uh

we're so good, we don't need to do any of this stuff." You know what I mean? >> [laughter] >> "We got it. We're we're so far ahead of the curve, we don't need to know that, you know?" >> So, Dan, we have um a couple office manager former office managers that work here at BoomCloud that help our customers. And the thing they say the most I hear when they're talking when they see the scenario, exactly what you're talking about, the arrogance and ignorance a lot. Um

and they always say, "You know, a lot of practices have run like this. The The right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing." Meaning, the dentist doesn't know what the office manager is doing. They're just kind of running this That like I hear that phrase constantly when I go out into our office and just talking to our like customer success team and and just trying to solve some of the problems of, you know, some of our practices that we we're trying to help. Um

that phrase comes up a lot. The right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing. It's kind of like, "I'm just walking around flapping their arms." And that's a great combination of arrogance and ambivalence. >> Yeah. Uh and also uh ignorance. So, because what you have there is you have overconfidence in the capacity or ability of your of your office manager, right? The doc does. Yes. Which they could be amazing, but you're still either that it's born of overconfidence or you just don't give a

crap and cuz that that there's your ambivalence, right? And so, either way you don't know. You don't know what's happening. And so, it leads to, you know, ignorance. And >> [laughter] >> you start That's such a great and I I love that you're giving these real-world examples because they really tie in Yeah, we see it. We see it every day just like you, right? Just in a different just with like growing membership plans, right? That's That's where I see it. Yep. And then and then obviously

and just we we both have been in dentistry for a while. So, it's like Wow, yeah. Dental lab people act like that, too. >> [laughter] >> You know, people are people, man. Yeah, it's people are people, yeah. And of course, there's been times where I've been ignorant and you know, running my own company. >> Oh, we all have. I've I like the the the learning because I had touched the stove 12 times. Uh this happened many times. It's still hot, Dan. Yeah. No, I'm learning, but

um and you said something that's why mentors are important. Um so, what I 1,000% agree with that. I am I've always had mentors that help me kind of navigate, you know, what I'm trying to build. Yeah. And like exactly what I see you guys helping other practices trying to build their careers up, you know. And I've I think that's a really important thing to do. Most of my best learnings without touching the fire, right? Or the the stove. >> Yeah, yeah, [laughter] yeah. Have been with

um uh my mentors. That's I'm a part of a uh it's kind of like a peer group of other software bootstrap software founders. Yeah. >> Right? Very comparable to um you know, group that you may you may be coaching a a group of practices trying to grow their their businesses. Same thing with like what our buddy Dr. Mark Costes does, right? Very comparable. Um and that has been the best thing that I've ever done for myself cuz it really helps me one, self-reflect, and two, don't

touch that stove cuz that one's still hot, right? Type stuff, right? And I've learned so much so quickly. And there's about there's about 10, 12 of us that meet um weekly. And then we all meet together. There's like 60 of us total, 60 or 70 of us total that we meet quarterly and monthly. And that's been like a game changer for me, learning how to just manage my own business. So, I would imagine uh practices with with a support system like that and mentors that can

help them, that's that's a huge game changer for ignorance. Oh, it's massive. Yeah, I mean I've I've I've been practicing, you know, I'm about 15 years now. I've been practicing for about 15 years. Yeah. And if you just look at clinically, I have about six mentors today that are my clinical mentors. Sure. Um that on any given day, on any given case, on any given given situation that I can reach out to, and then I continue to learn from. And that's not including you know, the

the overall like life and you know, my leadership that the the community when within Elevation Association, this awesome group of docs that we have that I learn from all the time. It's you know, I get up and I do presentations and I'm supposed to provide the continued education and um the the discussions that come from these things, I'm like, "Holy crap. I'm getting mentored every time I meet because there's so much to learn from the you know, from so many awesome people." So, you know, the

community I I love that you brought that up because I think that that's one of the things that we undervalue as a mentorship type of situation where if we allow ourselves to be open, we can be mentored by so many of those interactions, peer interactions. >> And like it can be uncomfortable too, right? Cuz like, "Well, I don't want people to think that I'm I'm running my business wrong, my practice wrong, right?" But it's actually more freeing when you're like, "You know, guys, I like So,

that like last month I messed up something for in my business in the marketing system." And it really threw us off, right? And I had to go on a trip with that and I went to the our our group and I'm like, "Okay, so this is what I did." Like I'm not going to I'm not going to hide the mistake. Right. But I want to talk about it and figure out how not to do it again. And if it helps somebody else in my group, it'll

help somebody else in the group. That's That's a That's a That's a a good thing, right? One of my if we're going to talk about core values like you said, one of our core values here at BoomCloud is uh be a team rockstar. So, and in my family, right? And all my girls will talk about being team rockstars. We have core values at home, too. Um cuz that's I think that's the easiest way to teach the kids. Totally. Um but the the team members, too. Um

but like if I share a mistake or a learning because I messed up and touched the stove too early, and it helps one of my peers that you know, is running another, you know, software company, then that I like I consider that a win. It's like, man, if we can help each other do that as a as a group, as a community, then that like we all win when we share stuff like that. So, um being able to be vulnerable is really important, I think, in

those types of Totally. mentorship settings so that you can really just get down to the issues and solve them. Like, that's all it is. It's like, it's not personal. It's like Yep. >> You know what I mean? It's like Because you missed a KPI or don't understand a KPI in your practice doesn't mean you're a bad practice owner. You're just you're learning practice owner. We're all learning. So, no, I think I think mentorship and just getting with groups of of of other practice owners, for example,

and and wanting to grow with that is one of the the best things you can do. There's a book uh Think and Grow Rich. Oh, yeah. Have you read that book? He talks about the power of the mastermind. And um I mean, that that's one of my favorite books, and that's always the one that stands out. It's like, okay, so I got to be part of a mastermind. Uh so, if you're thinking about being a part of a mastermind, do it because it's like one of

the It's been one of the best things for me, even though I'm I'm not a dentist, but I'm part of masterminds. Yeah. And you see it all the time, Dan, right? That it it's a really beneficial for practice owners, and then you know, they don't have to touch the the hot stove again. It's how you could It's how you combat ignorance. It is. And it's it's that's because as you start to interact with the more people you can interact with, especially the more focal interactions based

on like your vocation, that's really helpful because you start to get just by osmosis, you start to take in a lot more things that you're like, oh, I didn't even know that was a thing. I didn't know I could do that. Oh, don't do that, you know, and or Yeah, It's fastest >> way to fastest way to get out of ignorance. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, and it's it's one of the reasons that that the EA tribe is has so much magic within it is that these

are the things that you can't build in. It's these social interactions that allow these organic growth models that you can't plan this stuff. It just occurs because of the interpersonal reaction relationships that that come from it. So, yeah, that's massive and and that's so I mean if you want to combat your own ignorance, obviously, you know, CE education, get yourself involved in that, but also get into a community. Yeah, yeah, education is really good, too. Like um I'm big at reading books with our team. Yeah,

well, that's a novel idea. Read books. Read something. Yeah, read something. Like my brother, Justin, who you've met, um always talks about um the importance of reading just within our team. And the importance of reading, you know, maybe something that helps improve, you know, their your skill set, for example, in their job roles. And it's it's interesting to me that those who read succeed um because it's probably exactly what you said. It it help It's a way to get out of ignorance, right? And you self-assess

as well. It's like, oh, oh, I could be saying that better on a on a phone call to a patient, you know, or whatever, right? Whatever you're reading. But it just when you read, it allows you it connects uh your mind better, and then it allows you to learn and and get out of not knowing. Yeah. So, it's really cool. All right, what's the next one here we got? Do we got capacity next? Is that the Ambivalence. Oh, ambivalence. Ambivalence is the ambivalence is the as

a as a as a consultant and as a coach and certainly as a doc ambivalence is one of the most frustrating things that you bump into. Because you can have somebody that has overcome all the other four. But if they just don't give a crap, that's a choice. So the other ones can sometimes not necessarily be a choice. It's something that they can't control. But ambivalence is a choice and that's where it gets really frustrating. And any doc that has we've all faced this. It's the

patient that comes through the door that is blown apart. They have cavity carries everywhere. They have infections everywhere. And they'll say something along the lines of well, it doesn't hurt. And you're like, okay. All right. >> [laughter] >> And >> Doesn't hurt so I'm good. And you know, and it's the And the real level of ambivalence is where it's this patient that there's no financial barrier. There's no time barrier. There's no education barrier. They just don't care. They just don't care. >> That is the hardest

patient to deal with, right? Because you What do you do at that point? You're just like stare at them and be like, all right, just like beware of, you know, >> See you in a See you in a couple of years. Watch out for systemic infections, you know, like Yeah, see you in a few years for your dentures. >> Yeah, and that's exactly [laughter] right. I mean I I It's a very childish I actually just saw a kid the other day that had just was completely

ambivalent. Didn't care, right? And his mom was like, make him care. And I'm like, Make him care. >> [laughter] >> Make him care or die. Jeez. I'm like, I'm like, that's your job. But I don't know I don't you know, I don't ground him. I don't know what to do. Like teach him consequences, like Make him care. >> Um so, but we see it all the time in practices and, you know, some people >> ownership? Yeah, just I mean, what we're seeing it more now today,

um, is it's an alignment problem, right? And when you're misaligned, and I think that's why we're seeing more, um, movement within the DSO and the corporate world is [clears throat] that there are, because of the the the explosion of DSO and corporate positions, there's a lot more available. And so, if someone is like, "I don't want to be an owner. I don't I just want to be a clinician. I don't I don't align well with ownership." There's more avenues for employment there than there used to

be, um, Interesting. Which is unfortunate because ownership there's a lot of benefits to it. There is, but if you are if you're ambivalent about that, and there's nothing wrong with being To be ambivalent about something isn't bad. It there it certainly carries like a negative connotation. And then the negativity would be when you don't care and it and the impact of you not caring is negative, right? >> Okay. Yeah. So, and that's where we bump into, uh, sadly, they don't convert into become an EA clients

cuz they don't care. Like, you can find somebody that's frustrated and they're like, "Eh, like the maybe >> Yeah, I mean, the team is frustrated. They're not frustrated. They're just like, And usually it it let me tell you the scenario who it is. This is the doc that makes a good enough good enough I call it the good enough dentist. Okay. >> It's They make a good enough living that nothing's hurting them financially, nothing's hurting them in the office. Yes, they're in the comfort zone. Which

is the goal. I always say that's >> Yeah. the goal. We want to get Yeah, we want to comfortable. Yeah. But but not to the point of ambivalence, right? And >> Yeah. Um and not to be confused with capacity. So, we're going to talk about that in a second, but but ambivalence is super dangerous. And this is we were talking before we started the podcast. Um and and it's what teed me up on talking about this particular subject was you see the doc who is in

their 60s, maybe even their 70s Yeah. >> that has become ambivalent because It's exactly what we I was taught the the age of the dentist I was talking about earlier. Yep. >> Before before we recorded. They and it's not burnout. They Maybe they still love it. They just start to become ambivalent where they're just like, "Yeah, I just don't care whatever anymore." Yeah. Maybe that's just natural of aging, I don't know. Yeah. I it it Maybe. But when you're when you're younger and certainly when you're

newer into it, ambivalence you have to be careful of. And I And we already gave the examples that I see ambivalence the dangerous and bad kind of ambivalence is too often tied to arrogance. Okay. >> And that will lead to ignorance. And that's going to have bad repercussions. And you're going to end up in a bad place. And so that's >> it feels. Yes. Yep, absolutely. So So, ambivalence is one that you know, uh I I I do think we were talking about this earlier uh

Ryan and I about how your top like entrepreneurs, business people in the world, they all have coaches. They all have Yeah. consultants that they work with. Like they I you know, we still have people that we work with all the time. >> Sure. Yeah. And and you have to have that. And that's that's not it There's a reason why. And sure, I'm like, "Yeah." You But again, if if EA's not the fit, I've said this so many times. If EA's not the fit, go find someone

that is. You talked about Mark. Like Mark has a fantastic offering. You know, we even though Mark and the DSI and EA are direct competitors, we really believe in collaborating and working together because >> guys you guys have abundance mind sets, too, right? That Well, you should, right? Yeah, which I think is great, you know. Uh But yeah, but the the the point of that is don't be ambivalent. Like if you really want to find a happy place in your life, like don't just like don't

be become active, be proactive. And ambivalent people, you become reactive. And all that does is you find yourself putting out a lot of fires cuz you just don't care. >> also like take a second and wonder like I can go into ambivalence a lot because it has a lot to do with alignment where alignment can manifest as ambivalence. So, if you're misaligned and let's say that your day-to-day is filled full of things that you're misaligned with that you hate doing, that that dislike of of those

types of tasks and responsibilities, that misalignment with that, you're not going to care as much about those as something that you enjoy. Yes, absolutely. >> So, interesting. >> Interesting. So, take an assessment of like where do I align well? And am I doing a good job of delegating the stuff that I don't like? Because as soon as you misalign, burnout, by the way, is often misdiagnosed misalignment is often misdiagnosed as as um Let me rephrase that. Misalignment is often misdiagnosed as burnout. There we go. Got

it. Uh So, if somebody's misaligned with, you know, with tasks in the office, they they label it as burnout when it's just misalignment. >> would Yeah, cuz you're not going to want to go do the stuff that you hate doing. Like that like like the I can Like this I don't do the stuff that I don't like doing here, you know? I try to get rid of all that. Exactly. >> But hire people that are that that have capacity and the skill sets, right? That's the

Find your who. Which is which is also like can be challenging as well, right? >> be, absolutely. Yeah, finding the people with the right skill sets is a probably another topic. On [laughter] on our series of Okay, so capacity is next. Uh fear is next. Oh, fear is next. Yeah. Sorry. So So No, I'm good. >> [laughter] >> So fear is the one that we're all the most familiar with, right? Like and it's there's a lot of irony in fear in that we often recognize those

things. I loved your head in the sand comment about your dad because There was a lot of fear back then, yeah. But yeah, because he had something new forced on him, right? He had this new technology >> industry did. Yeah, and it was forced on him and it's making him change. Yeah. Right? And people there are is a large subset of people that fear change more than anything else. Yeah. Change is terrifying to them and if you introduce any kind of change it's going to freak

them out. Um and a lot of times they freeze out of fear, which is what the bury your head in the sand cuz they don't know what to do. Um and you can become frozen by fear. Fear motivates fear um as a motivator is >> It's powerful. Yeah, it's powerful but it's very short-lived as well. Sure, yeah. >> Yeah. Um because as soon as the as soon as the the the fear impulse goes away, the motivation goes away to change. Yeah, interesting. So um and they've

shown that in psychology over and over and over again. And so like where you would see that is like parents that try to use fear to motivate their kids, the scared straight program, you know, home like Yeah. Yeah, that never works. >> It doesn't work. It would It could You can change a temporary behavior. Yeah, short-term. >> You know, and but if you as we look at ourselves, I think we have to look and go, "Okay, what are what am I scared of to change? And

really that's what it boils down to is is like, "Okay, where am I being in- inhibited? What would that impact have if I were to to overcome this inhibition, right? Or what is this fear motivating me to do maybe that I wouldn't normally do? And that takes a lot of like you have to look inside and and kind of assess, okay, uh let me give you some real-world examples of this. Um Uh Ryan and I were just podcasting this morning on the the Elevation Association Experience

podcast about um a little bit about this topic. And we were talking about softwares, and softwares cost money. And if you're a startup or maybe you're struggling a little bit to take that financial leap uh to go invest into something like Boom Cloud, for example. >> Yeah. Um and say, "Okay, I need something to track this stuff. I need something to make my life better." And in making that initial leap that financial leap, even if it's small, you know, Boom Cloud is extremely affordable. But if

you if you're freaked out over, "Oh my gosh, I just looked at my books. Things are so tight. I don't know if I can Especially in startup companies. >> [laughter] >> That's scary, right? Like to to make that leap is scary. And so there's a point where you have to like get over it, you know, the bottom line. And there's something that we call paralysis by analysis. Yeah. Um and it where I think that you see that is you know, we like to go to Lake

Powell occasionally, and I like to cliff jump. Um Nice. And and I hate heights like with a passion. Oh, I hate it, dude. >> It's your exposure therapy. That's exactly what I'm doing. I I hate heights more than maybe anything, and I will force myself to go up to the these big cliffs and I will force myself to jump off them. The longer that I stand at the top of the cliff, the harder it gets for me to jump off. Yeah. There is a point that

I have to make up my mind prior to making the hike up that I will jump off. And that's a analysis analysis paralysis at work, right? Cuz your your brain is like, "Oh boy. Oh boy." And then it digs deeper and deeper. What could happen? You [laughter] know? So, and there's a lot of there's a lot of like self-help books and books on psychology about fear and overcoming fear and but just I think that it's important at this level to recognize where are our tripping points

with fear, where am I being motivated to do things that maybe aren't healthy, and where am I being inhibited from doing things that are healthy within my practice. And and really take um some stock on like, "Okay, what am I doing that's fear-based? Uh how is that pushing or motivating or limiting me on a daily basis, weekly basis, monthly basis, whatever?" Yeah, well I mean we see it too. Like a lot of a lot of practices that come to us, Dan, are trying to cut out

insurance companies, right? Like what you guys have done. And it's like very That is one of the things I think we do with a lot our team is that fear because well, it's it's changing their whole business model, right? And it's scary to a lot of practices. And I remember years ago uh I was at a I was at a seminar with Gary Takacs. You you know Gary. Oh, yeah. Um and Gary was talking about going out of network as he usually does, you know. And

I remember I was I was sitting at It was a room It was really close-knit. I was sitting next to this doctor in Texas and he leaned over to me. He's like, "I but I'm so terrified that it'll just collapse my business." And I remember sitting next to him and I'm like, "Doc, you don't need to rip out every PPO right now. Like, we know that you want to get rid of them and you you want to figure this out, right? But, here here's here's a

suggestion. You can take it or not, right? And if it makes sense to you. I said, "Just start building your patient savings plan and just start getting one patient at a time. Just focus on that." And over time, build up enough recurring revenue through your program to then drop just the weakest, like the smallest insurance company you got right now. Just just to get that exposure therapy going, right? Cuz it's it's crazy for a lot of uh a lot of these practices. But, that's the one

uh uh aspect of fear that I've realized, especially with what what we do, right? Um the practice owner was just scared and he almost wasn't willing to do anything about it. He's like, "Well, I'll just I'll just put my head in the sand and just keep doing this PPO game." Which is a a lot of practices, you know, we've talked to. It seems like that's the uh the the the mindset right now. Even when >> to ignorance. Yeah, they default to ignorance and I like I

literally was texting a an office manager yesterday just cuz I I keep in touch with with some people and I'm like, "Hey, what you know, why were you looking at you you know, dropping insurance companies and and building your you know, a membership plan for your practice?" And she's like, >> [sighs and gasps] >> "Uh you know, it's just this a reimbursement game. I just don't know how long I can do it." Like, but you just keep thinking and thinking and thinking about it and you

don't take any action. You just talk about how scary it is. You know, and when I see guys like you guys, you know, who have gotten through that fear and and gotten through ignorance and all these things we've talked about on this call today and you know, now you guys are operating a a fee-for-service practice out of network and you dropped Delta. Like that's that's pretty cool. But it's not because it's like because you guys worked on yourselves first mentally. I think that's really important. >>

Preparation, right? >> Yeah, like I think that's really important um in in this space especially with you know, where just the industry's going and how how difficult insurance is. But it's like you guys got mentors, got coaches, got and figured out how to how to how to beat the evil PPO empire. Right? Because of of everything we're talking about here you you overcame fear and cuz I would I would imagine there was a point of fear that you guys felt about, you know, dropping PPOs and

and and doing all that stuff. Maybe maybe not. Maybe you guys were like, "Let's just go." >> [laughter] >> Uh no, there I mean you So and you just touched on a a very human trait and within all of us and that is that ignorance breeds fear. Yeah, okay. We are generally more scared of the unknown than even if it's something uncomfortable with and again they've done they've shown this over and over and over again. And they've done it through like even like an unpleasant like

procedure like even getting your blood drawn for example like they can study that and they've said okay like if the if the if the person knows what's coming the first shot is always the worst, right? Cuz you don't know what's coming and you and every dentist that's dealt with the kid or even the adult, you know, the adult with their first cavity they're like they're like, "Oh, Judas, I'm so freaking scared right now." And you know, cuz they don't know what they've never had a shot

before. They've never had an injection before. Sure. And so we there's so many aspects of life that we can see that that the fear of the unknown is massive and and there's some areas that you even when you talk to somebody, right? Like you can kind of get an idea and so for us prior to to exiting and going fee for service, we talked to a lot of we we we enlisted our some of our mentors and we got them hooked up with people that had

exited. We talked to other peers that had exited. >> Yeah. We we did all of our groundwork with it. And there's still an element of fear that exist it doesn't go away. >> go away, yeah. Yeah, you're always going to have >> too. Running my company like there's still, you know, fear is something we it's a human emotion we got to deal with. And it's it's not like always it's not the fear itself that can limit us. It's what we do with it or don't do

with it and Interesting. Uh the the I tell my kids >> being comfortable sitting in fear but still taking a making a choice or taking action on something. >> Exactly. And that's where that again they're tied together, right? And if the fear leads to ambivalence and the ambivalence leads to ignorance, then that's now you're stuck, right? And now you're in a spot that is you're not moving. I tell my kids all the time when I ask them to do something scary I we tend to put

our kids like we do repelling, we do you know, we ride a lot of motorcycles, we ride a lot of >> of exposure therapy for them. >> Yeah, they my kids like we >> You're afraid of heights? Cool, climb a mountain. >> [laughter] >> But there is there is something to be said you know, I I tell my kids look bravery is not the absence of fear. Bravery is acting in the presence of fear. And I tip my hat to every practice owner out there because

at some point they bit the bullet and took out a massive A loan to go and buy that freaking practice. It's scary it's so scary. >> And they exercised a level of bravery. They exercised a level of bravery to go into dentistry to begin with and so we're wired to do these things, you know, and but there's always going to be the next thing that that we have to exercise our bravery and move past this this uh uh Yeah, that's really good. This is always there.

Always there. There's always something be like, "Oh, crap. I've got to get through this." No, this has been really good, Dan. I've actually really enjoyed this. And I learned something new today that you studied psychology. That's pretty cool. >> Yeah, yeah. Uh I No, this is really cool. So, okay. Practices that need They need mentors. We know this. Yeah, for sure. >> What's the What's the website they need to go to? Well, I think we need to We should hit on the last one. Let's talk

about the last one first. >> I keep skipping them. I'm sorry. I wrote them in bad in wrong order and I thought we already did capacity. Okay, capacity. Yeah, [laughter] capacity, you know, I I talked earlier on the show what those two things are and how they manifest. One is is bandwidth, the other is the actual ability, right? Yeah, I don't need Bandwidth, skill set, or abilities. That's what I put down here. And this is one, you know, I don't need to beat this one to

too much. I think we all understand capacity and and there's, you know, at the end of the week we feel when we've met our capacity, right? We're like, "Okay, I'm done." And I certainly think that um every doc has met their limit, you know, at some point in their career when they're taking a tooth out. Where, you know, maybe it's early on um in in dental school and you're like, "I cannot get this thing out. I have met the limit of my capacity to be able

to do this thing." Um and, you know, uh but I think we've all bumped up to the limit of our capacity and and we have to look at that and take a good stock and inventory clinically, obviously, but clinically where that I think we can get We know Docs know their capacity clinically. And they build their practice around that. So, they refer out for certain things they don't like or that they don't have a high capacity for. Um I have a very, very low capacity for

ortho. And what I mean by that is I don't have a high interest for it. I didn't enjoy it in residency. It was not something that I just had a really low capacity. I don't even know if I could do it well. I have no idea cuz I never had enough capacity or interest to go and >> get to it, yeah. Yeah, and then you look at So, there's that type of capacity and I think that we as dentists are really good at setting the boundaries

for our our clinical capacities. But then you look at bandwidth and bandwidth is a completely different type of compas- capacity. And we typically, you know, when I talk about being the good enough dentist and and getting to that comfort zone, when I think of comfort zone, I don't think about it led by ambivalence. I look at it as a capacity and I want to be in my comfort zone as far as bandwidth. I want to have bandwidth left over at the end of the week. Yeah,

sure. When I'm done doing everything, when I'm done clinic seeing patients 4 days a week between two practices and working another full-time job with Elevation Association and then working a ton with Dental Nachos >> you're on. And then, yeah, I want to have When when when Friday rolls around, I want to have enough bandwidth to be able I want to have enough capacity to jump on a podcast with Jordan Comstock and go and throw down. Just chill, yeah. Yeah, and >> [laughter] >> and you know,

that to me is how I measure, okay, am I maxed out? You know, am I done? And you can break it down into any like particular arena within your, you know, your your professional life because we can max out in different areas of bandwidth or like maybe management, you know, this is where understanding your role of visionary or integrator is huge. >> Yes. Oh, yeah, big time. So, know your role. I say that all the time. Know your role, you know what I >> Well, yeah,

know your role and then and then I mean every human being in your in your practice has all these things that we just talked about, right? Know that, too. Yep. >> And and how to how to assess and even help, right? Like one thing I like about you know, how we operate is Boomcloud is like do does this person have the capacity and the ability for this role? And what is what the company is needing right now from this role, right? And we we assess our

our our people all the time. Like I think that's just as important as self-assessing is like Uh I think it was a few last year. I'm like, I like sales, but I'm not a sales and like a sales rep is kind of like a dentist here at Boomcloud. They diagnose uh a problem and then they give the solution. It's very similar, right? Um they don't think of themselves that way. That's how I think of them. Uh the good ones at least. Um but I I was

I was reflecting last year on on myself. I'm like, you know, I I can only do so much coaching these types of sales reps. Like I have skill sets elsewhere. Uh so we hired a a coach, right? That comes in and and coaches these guys cuz I'm like, I can't get I can't teach these guys cuz I I don't know what I don't know about a sales org, right? Yeah. >> Yeah. I can teach a marketing team what to do and a software team what to

do. Like those are my skill sets, right? So, I think uh how I'm learning, you know, on this episode is okay, yes, I need to we need to self-assess, but then we also as leaders, cuz that's what we are running organizations, we need to help our team members assess as well and make sure that we're placing them in places where they have the capacity and ability and and that they're reducing ignorance because they're reading books and maybe getting a coach or mentor. Like that's our job

too as leaders, right? To do To do ourselves, but then also empower your team. To make sure our team members have those resources as well because most times they don't. Like when you look at other practices and and businesses, right? They're They're not They're not They don't have that type of leadership. So, now I think this has been really awesome, dude. Capacity is Uh and I don't know if I cut you off. I I might have cut you off on some capacity if you >> [laughter]

>> if you're finishing some thoughts. Uh I I don't think I've ever finished a thought, Jordan. You just keep going, right? Yeah. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the my problem is that So, for the remainder of the day, me and Dan are just going to be talking. >> [laughter] >> This is going to be This is going to be an 8-hour podcast. >> Yeah, yeah, we're just going to >> [laughter] >> We're going to test the capacity of the listeners on this. Yeah, yeah, that's a

good test. Yeah, [laughter] I I would say the only thing I would finish this up with is this concept of alignment and go back to this because capacity ties into this as well. And Jordan, if you were to take if I were to force you into the sales position, right? And say, "Okay, not only do you have to train your people on sales, but you have to lead the sales team and and do sales yourself." Yeah. Right? At what point does your capacity in the other

areas diminish? Yeah, so well I I know exactly what it was cuz at one point in time I had to do it running my company starting, you know, starting Boom Cloud from scratch. Um I had to be the one to do it, but then I could I I reached a point where I'm like, "Okay, my capacity is reached here. I cannot go to the next level because I don't know how." And I'm just going to get somebody that knows how. And then yes, I don't I

just simply don't know how because I'm not a professionally trained salesperson, right? I'm an entrepreneur. I'm a I'm a business owner. I'm I'm uh I'm a lab guy, right? My history is like it's I'm not a a trained salesperson. So, if if I were to if if you were to force me to like do that, one, I would figure it out because I'm driven, right? But, it would it would I would uh I would probably let go of my uh other areas of strength and and

then they would struggle, right? And then like have to go back and fix fix all that, right? That's kind of what I would think would happen if if I didn't hire the right people or the right coach uh for certain for that area, but I don't know. I don't know. I think you're dead right. I think this is and this is where we start to see the the problem with alignment, right? Is that when you become misaligned in So, your internal wiring >> be unhappy running

the company, too, right? And not not feeling fulfilled. Well, it it Yeah, exactly. It it That's and you just hit on a key point is that idea of fulfillment, right? >> Yeah. When you are low alignment, you're frustrated, you are generally feeling the effects of what would feel like burnout. Um you are caught up doing things that absolutely drain you. When you are in high alignment, your your internal wiring is matched up to your day-to-day um job, right? Or the jobs that you have. You are

then fed and you're fulfilled. And so, that is huge and the other areas now will shrink, right? You will become you will have the ability because you're overcoming a capacity problem to work on ignorance. You can focus on overcoming fears. You become That in and of itself is a lower lowering of ambivalence because you're working on these things, right? Um it is an area that you can start to recognize better now, maybe areas that you've been arrogant in. And and so, alignment is massive. It it

underlines this entire concept. And so, um yeah, dude, I think that that if you want to be living a more fulfilled fulfilled life, you work a buttload. So, start with work. Get aligned and get become more fulfilled there and and you can overcome those other five barriers. Yeah, this is awesome. Okay, then. So, a lot of our audience is like, "Wow, that was that was a lot." And yes, I may be arrogant or whatever, right? Whatever they're listening to. >> We're all If you think [laughter]

think you're a no on any of those five, you're struggling with the first one. >> [laughter] >> Great assessment. Yeah, so um if you're wondering, yeah, that's the way to do a quick self-assessment. >> Yeah. I'm not arrogant. Or you're you're the same Yeah, the irony is is if you're if you're if you have a if one of those barriers is high in your life, you're probably [laughter] guilty of all of them. So, yeah. No, so if if I would say if if you're needing to

uh or wanting to improve yourselves and improve your practice, like how do they get in touch with you guys's uh coaching and mentoring program? Like, what Do you have any resources online? Yeah, I stumbled onto this thing called the worldwide web. It's new. Yeah, yeah. It's new. >> Did you chat GPT it? Uh yeah, I chat GPT'd this thing. Yeah, I learned all about it. It's exciting. >> Sweet. It's really exciting. Yeah, I I understand it was uh invented just recently. No, so yeah, go to

go to go to our uh website. Go to elevationassociation.com. Um also, reach out to us um by way of email at elevationassociation Oh, wait, I just got that backwards. elevationassociation.com is our website. elevationassociation@gmail.com is our um is our email. So, yeah, we love talking about this stuff. I obviously am pretty passionate about this. Um I can talk about it ad nauseam. I Yeah, in our podcast. Um Yeah, that's right. >> [laughter] >> But I I really do One of my other core values, Jordan, is to

be of use. I want to be useful. It's massive to me. And so, I really do enjoy talking and learning from other docs, um office managers, you know, and and professionals within the dental world. And I I just I you know, in this conversation alone I've learned like a ton. And so uh please, you know, let's let's keep the conversation rolling. If you see me out and about, you know, pull me aside and and let's chat. Awesome. Okay, man. Well, with that said, we hope everyone

has a rocking day. Yeah, appreciate you, Jordan. Later.